Might & Fealty Community

Questions, Conduct, & Feedback => Rage Zone => Topic started by: Gustav Kuriga on January 18, 2016, 06:20:20 PM

Title: Yay bandits
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on January 18, 2016, 06:20:20 PM
Don't you just love being in a new realm, with barely any troops, and bandits come and wreck the shit without you being able to do anything? I do.

I'd prefer combat to be between realms, not fucking bandits, please.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Daemon DeadKing on January 18, 2016, 06:42:19 PM
I could make the whole world barren with the amount of salt i produce. I hate bandits like ... very much .
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: LGMAlpha on January 18, 2016, 11:11:50 PM
I don't really have anything good to say about bandits. I know some people have played them with some impact, but I haven't witnessed it. All I've seen is them being used as free troops in war, scouts, delayers, and because of their lack of sustainability, suicide attackers.


The solution isn't really obvious. I think bandits would be far more meaningful if they started with a small number of troops, and somehow accumulated more as their battle glory/gold increased.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: De-Legro on January 18, 2016, 11:51:40 PM
I don't really have anything good to say about bandits. I know some people have played them with some impact, but I haven't witnessed it. All I've seen is them being used as free troops in war, scouts, delayers, and because of their lack of sustainability, suicide attackers.


The solution isn't really obvious. I think bandits would be far more meaningful if they started with a small number of troops, and somehow accumulated more as their battle glory/gold increased.


As with many things Bandits need more time. And time is something Tom lacks.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: WVH on January 19, 2016, 12:10:39 AM
They are just fine.  Could be better sure but they are not that big of a problem.  If they are a problem, get off your ass and kill them.

The only times they have been a pain to me is if I leave myself undefended.  Really they just show where my weakness is and I work to improve it.  If you don't like them running around your estates, make sure you have someone there to stop them.  Its not that bad.  They burn down your shit, build it back.  Its not like you can really min/max this game to perfection, it is designed against that.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: De-Legro on January 19, 2016, 12:32:40 AM
They are just fine.  Could be better sure but they are not that big of a problem.  If they are a problem, get off your ass and kill them.

The only times they have been a pain to me is if I leave myself undefended.  Really they just show where my weakness is and I work to improve it.  If you don't like them running around your estates, make sure you have someone there to stop them.  Its not that bad.  They burn down your shit, build it back.  Its not like you can really min/max this game to perfection, it is designed against that.


You have established estates with good troops, Gustav in this case does not. Bandits are an extreme threat to the new realms that did not secure troops from elsewhere.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Arx on January 19, 2016, 07:37:04 AM

You have established estates with good troops, Gustav in this case does not. Bandits are an extreme threat to the new realms that did not secure troops from elsewhere.

Yeah, you can get pretty unlucky pretty easily. Asitet Anoth has managed to pull itself up by the bootstraps past that stage, but it was lucky.

I could make the whole world barren with the amount of salt i produce. I hate bandits like ... very much .

That'd be in the Kingdom of Asrania? You'll likely be struggling for quite a while. Establishing a kingdom on scrub, thin scrub and desert is not a task I envy you.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: WVH on January 19, 2016, 05:22:53 PM
You have established estates with good troops, Gustav in this case does not. Bandits are an extreme threat to the new realms that did not secure troops from elsewhere.

I get that.  So do something about it.  You know bandits are in the game and a threat, so design a way to beat them.  Realize there will be a % of lost effort and time.  If you can not take on bandits then you have over extended yourself.  Established estates or not, I still end up with bandits some times when I am off at war.  They cause damage then you repair it.  We are lucky we dont have weather.  It would just be one more thing that gets in our way of playing how we want.

Not trying to sound like a dick but there is always so much nit picky criticism about every feature.  We have to accept the bandits in the game just like we have to accept that a tree can fall across the road in real life.  it is a pain in the ass we need to deal with.  Dont have a chainsaw to cut the tree, you figure out another way.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Tom on January 19, 2016, 07:39:49 PM
Bandits were designed for a purpose. Let's discuss if they serve that purpose or not. If not, what can be changed so they do. If that is not possible, I will take them out again.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on January 19, 2016, 08:04:29 PM
I get that.  So do something about it.  You know bandits are in the game and a threat, so design a way to beat them.  Realize there will be a % of lost effort and time.  If you can not take on bandits then you have over extended yourself.  Established estates or not, I still end up with bandits some times when I am off at war.  They cause damage then you repair it.  We are lucky we dont have weather.  It would just be one more thing that gets in our way of playing how we want.

Not trying to sound like a dick but there is always so much nit picky criticism about every feature.  We have to accept the bandits in the game just like we have to accept that a tree can fall across the road in real life.  it is a pain in the ass we need to deal with.  Dont have a chainsaw to cut the tree, you figure out another way.

Yeah, I'm sooooo overextending myself when our realm has maybe 4-5 settlements. The issue is bandits have been upgunned so that they can make an impact on the larger realms, but that is really a backwards way of doing things. Bandits realistically would avoid the large realms because they have so many troops, and would attack the smaller realms. So they should be balanced towards the smaller realms. It's ridiculous as a small realm of 5-10 settlements to suddenly expect to be able to fight off bandits with over 100 men, many of them wearing top tier armor like plate or having warhorses.

So either balance them towards the lower end of the spectrum of realms, or don't have them at all. Bandits were never supposed to be a core feature, but it's grown to become that because of the sheer impact it has out of proportion of what it is supposed to be.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: WVH on January 19, 2016, 08:34:14 PM
Ah ok.  I have a bandit right now that spawned with 50 something soldiers in a realm about that size.  Went right to a settlement that had a handful of defenders, attacked and looted.  No one came.  So I went to the next.  too many so I went to a third and attacked and looted.  Now I am moving him out of that realm because....it is boring.  I would love more interaction when playing a bandit.

but because the bandit was weak, no one seems to care.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: De-Legro on January 19, 2016, 10:18:13 PM
Ah ok.  I have a bandit right now that spawned with 50 something soldiers in a realm about that size.  Went right to a settlement that had a handful of defenders, attacked and looted.  No one came.  So I went to the next.  too many so I went to a third and attacked and looted.  Now I am moving him out of that realm because....it is boring.  I would love more interaction when playing a bandit.

but because the bandit was weak, no one seems to care.

No, he was.probably too strong for the realm even if they marshalled, then they have to chase you etc. Most small realms learn early on to ignore them and rebuild when they are gone.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: stueblahblah on January 20, 2016, 02:39:38 PM
If bandits would be simply allowed to transmit their gold around, many stories could be made, many would have motivations to do something.

Right now, bandit game can only annoy one side or another.

If they attack weak ones, weaklings are depressed very much, but bandits have no much fun.

If they attacks strong realm, that can make good training for realm's warriors, but again bandits themselves have little incentive. When playing bandit I feel as if it is expected from me to annoy other players, which is not my desire at all.

Nothing to offer, nothing to receive - how to reach interaction? One mechanically simple measure, allow them to hand gold, and I am pretty sure bandit game can become even interesting!
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Tom on January 20, 2016, 09:17:46 PM
What could bandits do with gold?
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: stueblahblah on January 20, 2016, 10:01:28 PM
What could bandits do with gold?

Just transmit it to any noble. With all limitations they have anyhow, that would just provide some incentive for little help to either own family or some friendly characters, some reason for them to do something around. That would also allow any character to bribe bandit for his own small affair.

As bandits cannot replenish troops, any such game is limited in time, but could provide some motivation to all participants to act, interact.-
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: WVH on January 20, 2016, 11:53:46 PM
Ahh gold could equal longevity for bandits.

The only way they could get if would be through looting.  Then they could use it to purchase entourage or warriors... just like we do at an Inn, they could do randomly.

The price of a warrior could be adjusted to help balance how many they can ever get.

They should not be able to accept gold from nobles or give gold to nobles.

IF the ability for a bandit to survive and grow is based on the gold they loot, it means that in small poor realms they will become weaker and in powerful rich realms they will grow stronger until they become a larger threat worth putting effort against.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Grayford on January 21, 2016, 12:24:54 AM
What if bandits started with a smaller amount of less desirable troops (light infantry, shortbow archers, etc.) and as they won more battles and looted more villages allow them to get (or simply spawn) better troops. Another suggestion would be to allow bandits to spend gold to buy better troops, not mercs but permanent troops from their own pools.  This would provide some incentive for people to face bandits before they become a bigger problem. And it can be explained IG by bandits showing their worthiness as a leader so more mortal flock to help them in their cause.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Tom on January 21, 2016, 07:28:57 AM
Interesting idea. How to balance this so they don't become "the" dominant force in small realms (even small realms have some gold).
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Arx on January 21, 2016, 08:36:30 AM
Change the type of soldiers they acquire (by miracle, by defection, whatever) to be dependent on the training facilities available nearby. Poorer realms would then only really have to worry about archers, light infantry, and occasionally medium or heavy infantry, but wealthy and established realms would have much greater threats, since a bandit could net longbowmen, heavy infantry, or even heavy cavalry if left unchecked.

Alternatively, have the bandit's troops be drawn directly from the militia in small numbers. That way a small realm with a small army wouldn't really run into problems with bandits with massive armies.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: stueblahblah on January 21, 2016, 03:39:26 PM
Interesting idea. How to balance this so they don't become "the" dominant force in small realms (even small realms have some gold).

they are dominant power in small realm currently, but if they can exchange gold, take and receive it, they would have ability to play small game, and small realms will at least have some means to bribe them. Currently they have nothing but to annoy small guys who are depressed anyhow.

of course, they can sit somewhere and plunder for ages, but it gives time to small realm to find someone for help, if bribing itself does not help. all that could improve interaction imho, as currently neither side has anything to negotiate about.

bandit game is self-adjustable - because they cannot replenish troops their time is limited. but this way small games could be played.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: WVH on January 21, 2016, 05:20:15 PM
they are dominant power in small realm currently, but if they can exchange gold, take and receive it, they would have ability to play small game, and small realms will at least have some means to bribe them. Currently they have nothing but to annoy small guys who are depressed anyhow.

What would they use the gold for in this situation?  It would not work with the idea of buying soldiers for bandits... someone would just give a bandit 5000 gold and watch them become a monster.

Permission for bandits to enter could be a way for a noble to 'allow' more gold.  Basically looking the other way while the bandit loots for x days.  Same could be done now by a noble removing militia and standing aside.

But being able to freely give gold could end up very bad unless there is another blocking idea somewhere.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: stueblahblah on January 21, 2016, 05:41:13 PM
What would they use the gold for in this situation?  It would not work with the idea of buying soldiers for bandits... someone would just give a bandit 5000 gold and watch them become a monster.


how can bandit "become monster"? all he could do with gold is to transmit it to someone else, he cannot buy troops in inn. that means his role is limited to some local loots, and he can transmit his gold to some friendly noble before being extorted, which will inevitably come within reasonable time as he cannot replenish troops. he can also be bribed, but again, his game is very limited

moreover, some nobles would find appealing to chase bandits, knowing that they can get some of their gold by killing them. small prey, small game, but some motivation to people to play about that.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: WVH on January 21, 2016, 08:05:20 PM
how can bandit "become monster"? all he could do with gold is to transmit it to someone else, he cannot buy troops in inn. that means his role is limited to some local loots, and he can transmit his gold to some friendly noble before being extorted, which will inevitably come within reasonable time as he cannot replenish troops. he can also be bribed, but again, his game is very limited

I was saying he could become a monster if gold was allowed to be transmitted to him AND IF the idea of buying soldiers was adopted also.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Arx on March 17, 2016, 08:25:19 PM
So I'm dredging this up because of a particularly silly-seeming incident:

Participants
Rondan II Balkopan            Hjalti
Initial Troops
    17 medium infantry                 
    73 light infantry
    35 archers
    1 noble
    16 medium infantry       
    13 heavy infantry
    8 archers
    2 heavy cavalry
    1 noble
Combat
Ranged Phase
    35 shots fired           
    19 hits
    4 enemies killed
    5 enemies wounded
    8 shots fired           
    5 hits
    3 enemies killed
Melee Phase 1
    123 soldiers fighting           
    6 enemies wounded
    3 enemies killed
    32 soldiers fighting
    11 enemies killed
    3 enemies wounded
Melee Phase 2
    109 soldiers fighting       
    7 enemies wounded
    25 soldiers fighting
    7 enemies wounded
    7 enemies killed
Melee Phase 3
    95 soldiers fighting         
    1 enemy killed
    7 enemies wounded
    18 soldiers fighting
    4 enemies wounded
    6 enemies killed
Melee Phase 4
    85 soldiers fighting
    5 enemies wounded
    2 enemies killed
    1 enemy routed
    11 soldiers fighting
    3 enemies wounded
    2 enemies killed
Melee Phase 5
    80 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies wounded
    1 enemy routed
    6 soldiers fighting
    5 enemies wounded
Melee Phase 6
    75 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy wounded
    1 enemy routed
    4 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies killed
Melee Phase 7
    73 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies killed
Melee Phase 8
    71 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies killed
    1 enemy wounded
Melee Phase 9
    68 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies killed
Melee Phase 10
    66 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy killed
    1 enemy wounded
Melee Phase 11
    64 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies killed
Melee Phase 12
    62 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
Melee Phase 13
    62 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy wounded
    1 enemy routed
    3 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy wounded
Melee Phase 14
    61 soldiers fighting         
    1 enemy routed
    2 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy killed
Melee Phase 15
    60 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    2 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy killed
    1 enemy wounded
Melee Phase 16
    58 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    2 soldiers fighting
Melee Phase 17
    58 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy routed
    2 soldiers fighting
    2 enemies killed
Melee Phase 18
    56 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy wounded
    1 enemy routed
    2 soldiers fighting
    1 enemy killed

That's two axe/plate/warhorse soldiers and a noble holding 74 enemies. If they'd had even maces, it would have been a massacre. And they were ~20 experience when it started (they're 50+ now, thanks to the zillion phases), so that could have been a lot uglier in quite a few ways.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Woot on March 18, 2016, 08:08:09 AM
I had a similar experience with a bandit. 80 of my soldiers (Halberds, longbows, maces, scale and leather) fought 3 bandit heavy infantry for 8 rounds. Now I'm terrified of fighting anyone who might have a significant number of soldiers with maxed out equipment.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Lann on March 22, 2016, 03:48:50 PM
I had a similar experience with a bandit. 80 of my soldiers (Halberds, longbows, maces, scale and leather) fought 3 bandit heavy infantry for 8 rounds. Now I'm terrified of fighting anyone who might have a significant number of soldiers with maxed out equipment.


Was that you I was fighting up north?  We were trash-talking at each other and I had my bandit RP as a believer in the Black Road.  God that battle went on forever.  Plate Mail ain't no joke.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Insanegame27 on May 01, 2016, 09:47:02 AM
So a slightly different take on the thread here, but I recently (read: Just now) came into possession of a bandit character who spawned in a very good position to act as a mercenary/whatnot for the local lords. This was my plan. However, the previous owner of this particular bandit had gotten very creative and set the appearance description to ((Hope this isnt seen as meta or anything)):



Her long braids protrude from her scalp as phallic idols. The point of her spear is excessively rounded, its format not the most efficient for fighting. Earrings, collars, even the stamps on her clothes, everything points to a certain obsession with male genitalia.

It is not the physical threat which makes her enemies cower, but the knowledge of the delight of her tortures should you ever fall into her hands.

*sigh* and here I was hoping to something other than usua bandit crush/kill/burn/pillage. It's going to be hard to talk to nobles with a description like that.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Lann on May 04, 2016, 10:17:30 PM
LMAO. 


Who the hell did that?   :D
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Humbaz on October 09, 2016, 09:45:45 PM
Question: If you kill a bandit do you get his gold?
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Andrew on October 09, 2016, 10:00:24 PM
I do not believe so, but that is a good idea. Maybe it'll make people be more interested in killing them. I'll put it on my list.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Insanegame27 on October 10, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
Of course, bandits may actually pillage for gold if they had a use for it. As it is, no-one pillages for gold because bandits can't do anything with it. Right now all they do if burn stuff down, and it takes weeks of dedicated burndownery to make much of an impact to the target settlement, and if someone leaves you burning shit for weeks, then they deserve that place burned to the ground
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Constantine on October 12, 2016, 04:14:32 AM
I actually tried burning a village down with a bandit and found it an impossible task. You can choose which buildings to damage, so it's something different every time and buildings just get repaired sooner than you can destroy them.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Lann on October 21, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
Such a simple idea but effective,allowing First Ones to take gold from Bandits.  In fact, I think it'd be good if First Ones could take the gold off any other First One they killed. Make it interesting and profitable for characters to kill each other.

Also how you feel Andrew about bandits once again being able to enter settlements and use inns?  I know some people didn't like it in the past, but honestly, it was incredibly fun, sparked actual intrigue, wasn't overpowered in the slightest, provided a money sink, gave bandits a way of interacting meaningfully with First Ones, allowed the First Ones the ability of recruiting these less-than-reputable individuals toward mischief, and made these criminals actually relevant, as with proper and constant financial backing, they could become legitimately threatening.

It was far more interesting than the system we have now where these bandits just attack a settlement or feature, get ignored, and then peter away when they finally get tired of never getting any meaningful interaction and decide to suicide against a castle wall.  I've found myself actually REGRETTING playing a bandit because rather than being fun, it just comes across as just another thing I have to do that ultimately feels like a waste of time. 

Seriously, I never understood why Tom removed the features for bandits to enter settlements and use inns.  It seemed totally reactionary to the outright whining at the time from the same players that always whined about everything when things didn't go their way.  The result actually ended up hurting game balance when they got what they wanted.  Back then, in terms of balance, funding a bandit to maintain inn-provided mercenaries was risky, expensive, and could always be traced back to the character funding them.  But in exchange, it really did allow for some great RP and amazing fun.  What do you say Andrew?  Can we make bandits great again?
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Andrew on October 22, 2016, 04:55:56 PM
The feature was removed because people were abusing bandits to fight their wars for them, which goes against the entire point of bandits. They are bandits. May make it so bandits will deliberately not fight alongside first ones in regular field combat. Or at least, not willingly. Tempted to make it so they auto-attack their own side if their side has non-bandits on it. Which would be kind of funny the first time it happened.

That said, I've been toying with the idea of giving them hideouts that they can return to, build up, recruit at, and such. That might come along with bandits not starting out with these ridiculous hordes of warriors they have now as well. Turn them into a thing that starts out as a pest but can eventually turn into a serious problem.

I like the theory of bandits, but I don't like them as they are now. They either appear in areas that can stomp them or in areas that they can stomp. They appear with ridiculous loadouts. And they don't make much sense from an in-game perspective (given their loadouts).
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Constantine on October 22, 2016, 08:34:45 PM
I think bandits don't live up to their potential for one simple reason. They just have no other purpose than senselessly griefing other players. If bandits had more stuff to do they'd definitely be more interesting.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Dystopian on October 26, 2016, 04:50:39 AM
Why can't it be one bandit per account? I've ran into a guy using them to ooc intimidate me recently and while I don't care as nothing came of it, I wouldn't want it to happen again.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Andrew on October 26, 2016, 10:36:20 AM
One bandit per account? It is. You can only ever have one bandit.

Unless you mean one bandit per account ever? We'd run out of people to play them.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Lann on November 02, 2016, 03:47:54 PM
The feature was removed because people were abusing bandits to fight their wars for them, which goes against the entire point of bandits.


"Abusing"  You see this is where you, Tom, and I disagree.  Abuse?  How was it ever abuse?  I see this word thrown about a lot, but never once has anyone proven what was going on to be abusive in any way.  Just what about this ever broke the game?  For there to be abuse, you need some kind of unfair advantage imparted via exploit, of which there was none here. It's not like bandits were just getting these armies from thin air.  It took revenue, Andrew.  Money and resources from someone somewhere.


Everything I did with bandits back when I hired them regularly to go attack my foes, I could have done with regular player characters that decided to be mercenaries. Just give them access rights to a settlement with an inn, drop a buttload of gold on them, and say "have fun".   Except those First One characters can ALSO receive soldiers, own settlements, generate their own income, train and move militia, etc.  Bandits by comparison are much more limited.  AND they can't evade a fight.  So comparatively, if you're looking for the best bang for your buck, you're actually much better served hiring a First One mercenary than a bandit mercenary as they can take over settlements, run from fights whenever they feel like it, and receive regular armies rather than rely on inns. 


And we can do that to this day.  So how was bandits having this one little thing they could do to interact with regular First One characters so bad? 


They are bandits.
[/size][/font]

Yeah and so what?   You know highwaymen regularly did take payment for services right?  Many did work as mercenaries.  Or sometimes they would accept payment from nobles, merchants, and such as 'protection fees' to stop harassing roads or attacking towns.  Or accept random fees for capturing important individuals.  Before Tom took that away from them, the bandits in this game could do that as well.  They had a use for money and so money was a way to buy them off, get rid of them, get a family member back, or pay them to work for you. 


But now suddenly, they can't do that anymore because "they are bandits."  I fail to see how this is remotely an argument.

Look, I might understand if you were arguing against players directly giving militia over to bandits (though honestly even then you can do that already with an anonymous First One player for hire), but we're talking just giving them gold and letting them hire mercenaries from inns.  For them to do that, they need to either force their way into a settlement that has an inn and somehow manage to have stayed alive long enough and raided enough wealth to hire a company for a brief period of time (possible but temporary and difficult).  Or they need a First One to fund them and grant them access to a settlement with an inn.  And the thing is, that's costly.  Giving a bandit money to go hire mercenaries is very costly work and is traceable, what's more by just looking at the bandit's profile page.  Oh and if you have bandits going behind your settlement walls unopposed by the local guards, that too is suspicious and visible to anyone passing through. 

When I was playing more little shadow game with a bunch of bandits, it was difficult to keep that hidden and anyone could have bust the lid on that at any time.  Instead, they chose to whine about it and Tom reacted.   

Quote
May make it so bandits will deliberately not fight alongside first ones in regular field combat. Or at least, not willingly. Tempted to make it so they auto-attack their own side if their side has non-bandits on it. Which would be kind of funny the first time it happened.
  [/size]

Their own side... which side is that?  No one can fund them and they have no use for money anymore so, at present, bandits have no side.  Or are you talking about those players that take their bandit and use it to support their main character?  I mean, I guess that'd be funny and karmic.  But we already have a system in place where bandits lose soldiers the further from their 'home' region they get.  So unless someone gets lucky enough to play a bandit in the same region their main character is during war time, just how much of an advantage are they really getting here?  What a hundred extra soldiers that can't be restocked?  Seems unnecessary to me but sure.  If you want to have them attacking all sides in a scuffle, be my guest.  But the only way you'd do really do that is by making them auto-attack First Ones any time one shows up in their effective range.  And that means, the only way they'd ever be able to interact is by attacking. So want to pay them a ransom to get a captured friend back, or keep them off your land, not happening.  Just seems like yet another hurdle to make playing a bandit utterly boring and lacking in interaction.
Quote
That said, I've been toying with the idea of giving them hideouts that they can return to, build up, recruit at, and such. That might come along with bandits not starting out with these ridiculous hordes of warriors they have now as well. Turn them into a thing that starts out as a pest but can eventually turn into a serious problem.



So essentially, the bandit would just sit in their hideout waiting to either build enough of a force to roflstomp someone with or for some First One to drop by and kill them before they can get started.  Either way, they'd just sit there.  Not interacting.  Not doing much of anything really.   Just waiting to be relevant.  And then when they are relevant, they'd just attack a random place and that'd be the extent of their interaction.   Yay...

This still doesn't explain why a bandit would feel the need to attack anyone.   They can't use any resources they loot.  They can't use the settlements they hit in any meaningful way.  They gain nothing by attacking another First One.  And they get nothing from talking to them.   


And the real problem here is that the player gains nothing by playing as a bandit.  You only ever do it because you think you'll get lucky enough to start as a bandit in a part of the world where you can use that bandit to support one of your main characters (which we all agree is OOC and bullshit).  OR you're doing it because you think you're doing some kind of civic duty to the community, which you aren't because you're irrelevant and everyone knows it.   OR you really are a new player that's bought into the idea that you'll be able to get into some thrilling fights, until you realize you have to sit for weeks  just to build up the amount of men to be a threat, assuming the local First Ones don't stomp you before you even begin.  Somehow, I don't think this is a great first impression for new players wanting excitement.

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I like the theory of bandits, but I don't like them as they are now. They either appear in areas that can stomp them or in areas that they can stomp. They appear with ridiculous loadouts. And they don't make much sense from an in-game perspective (given their loadouts).


Well maybe they just need to be done away with then?  At present, they're not working, they're not fun, and they have no purpose.  What you want really is an AI to control them and have them spawn and attack targets randomly for a little suspense; but either you don't have the resources, the time, or the knowledge to set that up so you task this boring job out to players who don't really care to undergo this kind of pointless busywork. 


Look I'm sorry.  I know this post probably sounds a bit harsh and I'm being a downer here, but what exactly is the vision for these bandits?   It's like Tom wanted them about to provide a little spontaneity to the game, but the moment he got that spontaneity, it was all just too much and they got nerfed so far into oblivion that they're just another part of the routine now, both for First One characters who completely ignore them because there's nothing these bandits can really do to them 99% of the time, and for the bandits themselves who have pretty much no fun at all because their whole job is 'go to x.  click on y.  wait to die.'[/quote][/quote]
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Andrew on November 02, 2016, 06:54:28 PM
A number of us, myself included, may have used bandits as they were intended. To sow a little chaos and be a hand for people who didn't want to dirty theirs. However, until we can find a way to make them unique and not something easily abused, they'll remain as they are.

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For there to be abuse, you need some kind of unfair advantage imparted via exploit, of which there was none here. It's not like bandits were just getting these armies from thin air.  It took revenue, Andrew.  Money and resources from someone somewhere.

You do know that bandits spawn in with up to like 180 soldiers fitted in ANY equipment, at random, right? The game literally gave them armies on spawn.

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Their own side... which side is that?  No one can fund them and they have no use for money anymore so, at present, bandits have no side.  Or are you talking about those players that take their bandit and use it to support their main character?  I mean, I guess that'd be funny and karmic.

When I said that I'd just looked over the code that covers how battles work, and had been toying with redesigning it a bit to add more sides to it. If I don't actually add a graphic, but keep it to simply numbers, I could add in more-sided battles pretty easily. Taking a little more work, I could add in formations that give initial bonuses (as most units quickly disarray once they enter melee). And some more work beyond that would mean you could add in some semblance of a movement system, sort of like BM's. After that you could add in a strategic system to let you target (or not) specific units on the field.

It was mostly a joke statement that I thought it would be amusing to change the code a bit to make bandits either flip sides or make their own side if at the end of the melee phase they were allied to first ones. Doubt it'd be something I'd do, but was amusing to think about at the time.

All in all, I agree with most of what you say Lann, but I can't see what Tom saw about how bandits were or weren't being abused to further player advantages.

The reason I suggested ideas to change them is because I don't, personally, think they contribute much as is and want to change that.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Ehndras on November 17, 2016, 09:02:11 AM
Bandits are still ridiculously OP, it seems. Just had a bandit with a few hundred med-heavies randomly show up and murder my super-important RP character.

Would be nice if there were an option to go thru your dead char's old messages. So much lore and good writing I can no longer access :(
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Constantine on November 17, 2016, 07:17:13 PM
Strange, all the bandits I got lately didn't have more than 80 soldiers.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Dystopian on November 17, 2016, 07:49:04 PM
Bandits are still ridiculously OP, it seems. Just had a bandit with a few hundred med-heavies randomly show up and murder my super-important RP character.

Would be nice if there were an option to go thru your dead char's old messages. So much lore and good writing I can no longer access :(


Its lost to time.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: De-Legro on November 17, 2016, 10:27:15 PM
Bandits and the "abuse" are difficulty reign in without as Lann says destroying their fun. People saw them as merc's, which while I would argue was not their purpose was mostly fine so long as two players where involved. At least no different to rolling an unaligned noble to do your dirty work.

People's issue was however when you equipped and supplied your own bandit in order to fight without "consequence" and when area's where less established then they are now the act of moving a bandit half way across the world to overpower new realms.

The first of these abuses can again be performed by unaligned characters so who cares. The 2nd is situational and I would argue a consequence of not gathering the actual support needed for what should be a monumental act of founding a realm.

That said I long ago proposed something like Andrew, with hideouts and such to make bandits not front loaded with troops. Once time and effort are needed for them to aquire power of any kind I think the issues are resolved. What I want to see is some proper lore around them. Are they regenafe First Ones? Are they rebellious Humans and if so how do they avoid being placed under our mental powers?
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Ehndras on November 17, 2016, 11:02:56 PM
I feel allowing bandits to have hideouts and thus not spawn with a crazy amount of troops would be very, very useful and a great move.

They have so much potential, and its being wasted.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: De-Legro on November 17, 2016, 11:18:48 PM
I feel allowing bandits to have hideouts and thus not spawn with a crazy amount of troops would be very, very useful and a great move.

They have so much potential, and its being wasted.

But then the question arises that if we make them too involved, why are they a special random character class.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: willy on April 15, 2017, 07:45:29 AM
I guess I've had a different experience with the bandits I created. I got two killed within a week of raiding. One spawned and immediately went for a undefended village. Somehow ended up meeting someone passing through and got wasted. Dont even remember the report, I was new so I might have missed 100 man host sitting in a 500 pop town. The next one attacked a tiny palisade town with no noble (40 militia). Had 30 cavalry archers and 10 broadsword/scale. Infantry got shredded in ranged phase and the extended ranged fight went equally bad. Suppose those longbow cavalry could have done better in an open field.


I recall seeing it, but I'd like bandits to build off gold/food raiding. They scavenge for food to feed the men they hire with gold raided. If they could hire mercenaries anywhere, you could build a proper bandit king with time and luck. If that is too much power for a exploitable bandit then just extend the time it takes build gold per recruit. Loot a small town for 50 gold, that'll get 1 greedy bastard abandoning his home and Firstonelord, can you still pay the rest who did the same? Just something to give a bandit a solo-goal. The carrot doesn't have to be real close, just as long as it's somewhere in front of the horse.


For now it just seems like bandits are scout/harrass-mules; trying to keep from starving. I appreciate the goal "keep from starving" and dont get caught, but nobody appreciates the stick.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Demivar on April 15, 2017, 03:11:45 PM
I guess I've had a different experience with the bandits I created. I got two killed within a week of raiding. One spawned and immediately went for a undefended village. Somehow ended up meeting someone passing through and got wasted. Dont even remember the report, I was new so I might have missed 100 man host sitting in a 500 pop town. The next one attacked a tiny palisade town with no noble (40 militia). Had 30 cavalry archers and 10 broadsword/scale. Infantry got shredded in ranged phase and the extended ranged fight went equally bad. Suppose those longbow cavalry could have done better in an open field.


I recall seeing it, but I'd like bandits to build off gold/food raiding. They scavenge for food to feed the men they hire with gold raided. If they could hire mercenaries anywhere, you could build a proper bandit king with time and luck. If that is too much power for a exploitable bandit then just extend the time it takes build gold per recruit. Loot a small town for 50 gold, that'll get 1 greedy bastard abandoning his home and Firstonelord, can you still pay the rest who did the same? Just something to give a bandit a solo-goal. The carrot doesn't have to be real close, just as long as it's somewhere in front of the horse.


For now it just seems like bandits are scout/harrass-mules; trying to keep from starving. I appreciate the goal "keep from starving" and dont get caught, but nobody appreciates the stick.
The purpose of bandits is to create a bit of tension. In most places around the world, having a bandit present is something irritating that'd be beneficial to kill. It's great fodder for new players, and can at least get quiet realms talking for a short while.


As a bandit, you're playing for everyone else's benefit, really. I like that they can't evade because it means that players don't have to play cat & mouse forever with an untraceable character.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: McTang on April 30, 2017, 09:01:34 AM
So I'm a new player (came over from battlemaster to give things a shot), and one of the first things I did was try out a bandit. I didn't want to just ride and attack senselessly, and met with a noble so that I could start sending threatening messages.


There were plenty of ideas that occurred to me for fun RP, but I have to say the current system makes them all nigh on impossible. There's no way for a First One to accede to any demand since they can't transfer gold, give settlement access, or interact with a bandit in any way other than fighting. The one idea I hit on was to insist that the First One ban thralls in their region, but beyond that the current system makes bandits little more than distractions.


If the point of the game is to create a world where player interaction makes the fun, shouldn't the bandit system add to that fun by allowing proper RP? IF not, what's the point?
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: willy on April 30, 2017, 09:53:56 AM
If the point of the game is to create a world where player interaction makes the fun, shouldn't the bandit system add to that fun by allowing proper RP? IF not, what's the point?


I've had some luck with a bandit who I use as a forward-scout and insurgent for a noble; the two other bandits I got to try didn't last past the first "hi, my name is Mud" when going to interact with a nobles or other bandits. There isn't much to do with them, which I guess is the point, but I'm sure eventually some goodies will come out. Give a solo bandit more to do than waylay under-protected knights and towns.


I do like that a bandit's leverage is "I can stomp things" whereas a nobles leverage is "I can build things". Bandits are only good for one or two good battles, a disposable suicide fighter, but that seems reasonable for (essentially) a terrorist. Maybe try using your bandit as a tool for others rather than a force of his own. You can always try to stab them in the back (at the worst possible time) if you wanna be a baddie.

Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Gustav Kuriga on April 30, 2017, 09:58:11 AM

I've had some luck with a bandit who I use as a forward-scout and insurgent for a noble; the two other bandits I got to try didn't last past the first "hi, my name is Mud" when going to interact with a nobles or other bandits. There isn't much to do with them, which I guess is the point, but I'm sure eventually some goodies will come out. Give a solo bandit more to do than waylay under-protected knights and towns.


I do like that a bandit's leverage is "I can stomp things" whereas a nobles leverage is "I can build things". Bandits are only good for one or two good battles, a disposable suicide fighter, but that seems reasonable for (essentially) a terrorist. Maybe try using your bandit as a tool for others rather than a force of his own. You can always try to stab them in the back (at the worst possible time) if you wanna be a baddie.

Actually that was the entire issue with Bandits, realms would organize them to be used in conjunction with their own armies to overpower other realms who they otherwise would be on even terms with. And it is completely random who gets them. So imagine by sheer luck, a realm getting 4-5 bandits with plate armor troops.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: willy on April 30, 2017, 10:50:06 AM

There seems to be some limitations on when you can create a bandit, so that helps keep game changing shenanigans down. I'm not sure how much work it would take to pull that off...with the random spawns as well. I just got lucky when one spawned in just the right place.


500 gold could probably get you the same mercenaries for 1 pitched battle (as 3 or 4 brigands would add), so I count 'using' brigands as pretty well balanced. I wouldn't mind there being more luck/diceroll involved with bandits, though. I like wildcards.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Andre on April 30, 2017, 11:03:15 AM
Brigands add an extra First One to the mix aswell, which mercenaries dont. And it allows for completly anonymous attacks. 


But yes, brigands are basically useless to the game, and I would rather that people set up their own First One brigands, would mean they can still have all the features. And player mercenaries would be better as anonymous attackers and extra troops.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: willy on April 30, 2017, 12:14:32 PM
I would rather that people set up their own First One brigands, would mean they can still have all the features. And player mercenaries would be better as anonymous attackers and extra troops.

I kind of like that. Maybe not unlock all the options, though. I'd rather see different tools for certain things. Like, a brigand can take the town for himself (or enter it with permission) and can even buy entourage and force a tradepact...but you can't train/mobilize honorable troops. You have to buy mercenaries for more troops (or have troops assigned by a noble even). Brigands can still do their thing, but now they can also be hired guns that drain gold. Since getting entourage would keep a bandit from starving, maybe even make their lives gold-dependent? "Pay 10 gold a week or your men kill you" kind of thing. I'd like bandits to be a 'fight or die' struggle, or at least a respectable drain on resources if a noble is using them as a mule.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: Andre on April 30, 2017, 12:19:43 PM
I was more talking about if you want to play a brigand then creating a First One for that purpose would be a better choice type of deal, sure you dont start with troops but you can actually play the game. And honestly, getting troops isn't that difficult. There are so many independent, slumbering and lordless towns around that you can take over and train troops in. Hell in lordless ones you dont even have to take it over, just mobilize the troops or train some, you can even use it as your base.
Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: De-Legro on May 01, 2017, 01:52:17 AM
So I'm a new player (came over from battlemaster to give things a shot), and one of the first things I did was try out a bandit. I didn't want to just ride and attack senselessly, and met with a noble so that I could start sending threatening messages.


There were plenty of ideas that occurred to me for fun RP, but I have to say the current system makes them all nigh on impossible. There's no way for a First One to accede to any demand since they can't transfer gold, give settlement access, or interact with a bandit in any way other than fighting. The one idea I hit on was to insist that the First One ban thralls in their region, but beyond that the current system makes bandits little more than distractions.


If the point of the game is to create a world where player interaction makes the fun, shouldn't the bandit system add to that fun by allowing proper RP? IF not, what's the point?


As has been said, when we first had bandits you could pay them, give them troops pretty much anything you could do for any other character. They also had no restriction on where they could travel unlike the current code that has their troops desert if they move too far. The issue wasn't so much that people used them in their armies. It was they would organise a large band of them, give them good troops and then wage a war that was largely untraceable back to them, until they would march in later against a weakened foe.


As they are they are a pain. Either they spawn somewhere that is new or has "bad" territories and they are overpowered, or they spawn somewhere they are completely useless. I argued when Tom was placing the new restrictions that we should just do away with them, but as is normal Tom believed in leaving them in until he had time to further revise them. Personally I am a much bigger fan of cutting out things that don't currently work as with a project like this, you simply cannot know how long it will take until they give the attention to make them "valuable"



Title: Re: Yay bandits
Post by: McTang on May 01, 2017, 03:00:04 AM
Personally I am a much bigger fan of cutting out things that don't currently work as with a project like this, you simply cannot know how long it will take until they give the attention to make them "valuable"


I like that argument a lot. At the moment, they don't seem to be adding to the stated purpose of creating good player interactions and roleplay.