Might & Fealty Community

Questions, Conduct, & Feedback => Rage Zone => Topic started by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 01:57:28 AM

Title: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 01:57:28 AM
Let me shame the player of Harm the Bandit (ID 2148) who has been observed repeatedly attacking a new character (ID 5221) who is simply establish them self as a independent Lord of an abandoned settlement.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Daimall on November 16, 2015, 05:16:58 AM
I am the person playing Harm, I have been RPing him as some sort of mortal defenders of the "Free" villages and the ones next to it from the depredations of First Ones. Unfortunately it seems both were taken while Harm was "patrolling" between them.


I have already established my intentions to another First One in the estate nearby and I did not do this to intentionally pick on a new character. I have sent him a message explaining my characters intentions ICly, but he has yet to respond at all.


I was planning on having my character flirt between those region until someone just smashes him, but if this is considered an abuse then I will just figure out something else.


(Edit: Don't know why the font for some words suddenly became small.)
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 05:29:44 AM
I am the person playing Harm, I have been RPing him as some sort of mortal defenders of the "Free" villages and the ones next to it from the depredations of First Ones. Unfortunately it seems both were taken while Harm was "patrolling" between them.


I have already established my intentions to another First One in the estate nearby and I did not do this to intentionally pick on a new character. I have sent him a message explaining my characters intentions ICly, but he has yet to respond at all.


I was planning on having my character flirt between those region until someone just smashes him, but if this is considered an abuse then I will just figure out something else.


The character is marked as new, with a nice little suggestion, please act accordingly. Attacking him as repeatedly as soon as your troop regroup is hardly welcoming to a new player.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Daimall on November 16, 2015, 05:40:14 AM
I don't think I was attacking him as soon as they regrouped, but okay then. I will leave as soon as the current battle finishes. How much time is enough time for someone to respond to a message though?
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 05:42:25 AM
I don't think I was attacking him as soon as they regrouped, but okay then. I will leave as soon as the current battle finishes. How much time is enough time for someone to respond to a message though?


Depends on the player, some players take days. More then likely that player is simply not coming back.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: HarkonRules on November 16, 2015, 12:10:27 PM
Daimall, do whatever you want, you're roleplaying and even sending messages explaining yourself. That's more than enough for even a newbie, just because they're new doesn't mean they can't have "inconveniences" and have to be catered to and handheld, especially if it has flavour to it. Hell, the type of player that this game would benefit from, WOULD find such a scenario interesting even.

Don't let others dictate your roleplay.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 12:25:28 PM
Daimall, do whatever you want, you're roleplaying and even sending messages explaining yourself. That's more than enough for even a newbie, just because they're new doesn't mean they can't have "inconveniences" and have to be catered to and handheld, especially if it has flavour to it. Hell, the type of player that this game would benefit from, WOULD find such a scenario interesting even.

Don't let others dictate your roleplay.


If you can't separate RP from continually attacking a new noble with 1 rabble solider, with over 100, when it is likely the player is still trying to come to grips with how the game works, then your aren't focusing on the RP. But thats fine. I won't let people dictate my RP next time I decided to gather the armies of Hawks, and just go and smash some small realm, because my character is a jerk.


We need players of all kinds and inclinations, and the entire reason Tom added the new player indication was to ensure we gave them some consideration while they are still learning the game.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: HarkonRules on November 16, 2015, 12:35:06 PM
Yeah, and I'm sure Daimall saw the indication. What, you want him to get banned? At least he put in the effort, and we have no right to judge if his RP is legit or not. What's the point of a sandbox if it's going to be nazi regulated?
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 12:48:31 PM
Yeah, and I'm sure Daimall saw the indication. What, you want him to get banned? At least he put in the effort, and we have no right to judge if his RP is legit or not. What's the point of a sandbox if it's going to be nazi regulated?


If I wanted him banned, I would have simply messaged Tom. A waste of time mind you, since I am more then aware Tom isn't going to ban anyone over such things. Did I want to highlight that we could focus on being more considerate to new members of our community, so that they might remain members of our community and the game continues to grow, rather then goes backwards like has happened in the past. We had a massive player retention problem, things like the new player indication helped reverse that.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Lann on November 16, 2015, 10:10:22 PM
I am of a different school of thought, De Legro-- that we don't have to hold anyone's hand no matter how old or new, as doing so coddles your player base and sets them up with wrong expectations.  If they're going to be offended by getting attacked now, they'll be offended just as much later.  And I don't particularly care to play a game where everyone is afraid of stepping on everyone else's feelings.  Nope.  A bandit attack without support is one of many things that can happen in the game when you decide to split off and make your own realm, and you either prepare for that and accept the risks or you suffer the consequences.  But nobody is entitled to take it easy on anyone. 


Besides, what makes you think a bandit attack would drive a new player off or hurt player retention?  Or any attack for that matter?  This is a common theory, no matter what game you play, and it always centers around the idea that you have to hold onto new players as though they're precious china or they'll break.  Yet I've never seen actual concrete data in ANY of those games to prove this theory remotely true.  Everyone just gets their underwear in a twist, screams "but think of the children...", and then the loudest, most victimizing-sounding complainers get their way, regardless of whether they're actually right or whether what they propose is good for the game itself.  And the irony is some people DO quit, but not because of the guys that go around being 'mean', but because everything gets too structured, tame and boring. And when certain people try to inject some fun and unpredictability into the equation, they get shouted down and called 'griefers' and worse for their efforts, and then other players start trying to force them to quit or get them banned since they won't fall in line.  Funny how little player retention seems to matter, then...


De-Legro, I'm not accusing you of being a part of this group, but your words steer dangerously close to it.  And I disagree with them, strongly, completely, and for as long as I will ever play this game.  I cannot speak for everyone who plays Might&Fealty (and I would ask you not do so either), but I seriously doubt retention will be hurt at all by this bandit's actions.  I, for one, when I joined this game, did so knowing full well what could happen at any time and accepted it. Believe it or not, some of us get off on the risk, WANT it even.  We like the idea that anything we gain can be lost if we don't play our cards right.  I can't speak for this new player or his desires, but I can tell you that if this game were so tame as to not have that risk, even when I first started, I probably would have quit long ago. 



Anyway, congratulations, Daimall, for playing your part as a bandit well, and role-playing your actions.  Also, welcome to the game, Ak-Sai Sanarren (http://mightandfealty.com/en/character/view/5221)!  Hopefully, you'll gain some wisdom from this current experience and stick around to be a contributing member of Might&Fealty.  It can be a treacherous but incredibly fun world.  Hope you're up for it and I sincerely look forward to seeing how you do. 
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 16, 2015, 11:59:52 PM
I, for one, when I joined this game, did so knowing full well what could happen at any time and accepted it. Believe it or not, some of us get off on the risk, WANT it even. 


There we go, finally people say what is important. Let me fill you in on what I know from guiding upwards of 50 players into this game now. Most people DON'T understand this when joining. The bulk of knight offers I get filled are not from people who have friends playing the game and they have little understanding. They don't get the slow speed, they don't get the possible harshness of the sandbox. They need time to be taught those things, to have their expectations managed. That is why the New Player message does not last for ever, and in my opinion is probably a tad long in duration to start with.



Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Mookzen on November 17, 2015, 12:01:59 AM
Just move on, even if everything is undone, embrace the new beginning.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: HarkonRules on November 17, 2015, 03:47:24 AM
Just no, De-Legro. Tryharding to give newbies the most handheld experience ever in the end will be futile for retention. It's a charm and level of freedom and danger that people either must love or hate, even if they get to understand mechanics by having an artificial experience, at first sign of real dickwaddery will inevitably happen and hinder them, they'll just cry and leave.

We should treat new players as well as possible and help them if they join our realm, but no threat is beneath anyone and the sooner and more organically they realize this, the more time everyone saves as they either know it's the game for them, or it isn't.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 17, 2015, 04:00:16 AM
Just no, De-Legro. Tryharding to give newbies the most handheld experience ever in the end will be futile for retention. It's a charm and level of freedom and danger that people either must love or hate, even if they get to understand mechanics by having an artificial experience, at first sign of real dickwaddery will inevitably happen and hinder them, they'll just cry and leave.

We should treat new players as well as possible and help them if they join our realm, but no threat is beneath anyone and the sooner and more organically they realize this, the more time everyone saves as they either know it's the game for them, or it isn't.


Right cause you know, difficulty never increases in games as understanding and skill increases. Tutorials NEVER restrict features and add to them as you grasp the basics, no never. The point is to ease them in so they DO understand they are not being unfairly targeted. That way when the harsh reality hits, they understand that it is part of the game, and not someone griefing them.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Arx on November 17, 2015, 08:36:20 AM
If, when I had joined the game, I had been repeatedly attacked by the same bandit, I would probably have written the player off as a troll, the community as terrible, and the game as not worth my time. I'm with De-Legro, here. If getting into a game is made difficult by the playerbase, then... it's just a game, why should I bother? If there's a RP basis for it, it's a bit better, but... if that's what the game is like, why do I want to play it? M&F is already freaking impenetrable without people harassing newbies. At least give them a day or so before opening up on them.

I do think the label sticks around for too long (I'm apparently still a newbie, despite knowing pretty much everything meaningful about the game), but I think it should be respected, at least a little. Don't wrap 'em up in cotton wool and hope they don't break, but give them a slightly easier time.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Constantine on November 17, 2015, 01:00:41 PM
On the other hand, this tutorial mode may give new players a wrong perception of what the game is about.


I think it is important to let the newbie know from the get go that this is not Travian and you don't "win" the game by grabbing a settlement and building it up into a powerhouse. This game is more about accumulating power through oaths of fealty, alliances and treaties.
The sooner players understand their settlements do not matter that much at the start and they should first and foremost reach out to other players for support and protection, the better.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Arx on November 17, 2015, 02:00:07 PM
It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing polarised spectrum. I don't think going a little easy on new players is incompatible with letting them discover the aim of the game.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Tom on November 17, 2015, 03:29:40 PM
What's important, I think, is to give normal knights more to do that they can accomplish with relatively few troops.

Maybe dungeons should be revised, and instead of character-based be unit-based. So there's this ruins where a few rebels hide. If you come with a huge army, they will see you and disappear. If you come with a small force, you can have an interesting battle and beat them. If you ignore them, they will occasionally loot the nearby settlements or something.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Roran Hawkins on November 17, 2015, 04:38:47 PM
What's important, I think, is to give normal knights more to do that they can accomplish with relatively few troops.

Maybe dungeons should be revised, and instead of character-based be unit-based. So there's this ruins where a few rebels hide. If you come with a huge army, they will see you and disappear. If you come with a small force, you can have an interesting battle and beat them. If you ignore them, they will occasionally loot the nearby settlements or something.


I believe that finishing the quests mechanic and adding RP, fluff and some actually meaningful gold sinks for every character 'level'  would do a lot in allowing knights to do more. Something like allowing characters to 'buy' fancy armour from a location with a heavy armourer as some kind of fluff RP "look at my great Hawks-made plate armour fuck yeah" or "look at my pureblood Ascalonian charger it's so cool".

You could even invent a mini-economy for this where every 'investment' made like this temporarily increases production rate by 1%-5% for a few weeks to represent the great ornamented whatever they just sold.


Adding more expensive 'stealable' items would add even more RP and gold sink possibilities, making quests and tournaments where you can earn the big money even more meaningful for knights and small lordlings.



Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ratharing on November 17, 2015, 06:12:15 PM
Maybe dungeons should be revised, and instead of character-based be unit-based. So there's this ruins where a few rebels hide. If you come with a huge army, they will see you and disappear. If you come with a small force, you can have an interesting battle and beat them. If you ignore them, they will occasionally loot the nearby settlements or something.

Please, no more PvE features. The bandits are so cool because you are actually facing another player, and it's not just some meaningless chore to keep your realm afloat. NPC enemies that may rape or weaken colonists and small/young realms is really not the way to go, IMO.

You could even invent a mini-economy for this where every 'investment' made like this temporarily increases production rate by 1%-5% for a few weeks to represent the great ornamented whatever they just sold.

Adding gold sinks for PR purposes? Yes, totally. Maybe if you add aesthetic features and you would be able to buy a specific currency for them with either gold or RL money (the game has to be funded, and if it is purely for the looks there is no harm to the game).

Now making gold also increase settlement productivity is a no-no to me. You are just widening the already steep level gap.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Tom on November 17, 2015, 06:20:39 PM
I knew we had this idea before - check here:

http://forum.mightandfealty.com/index.php/topic,2680.0.html

Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Mookzen on November 17, 2015, 07:44:35 PM
What's important, I think, is to give normal knights more to do that they can accomplish with relatively few troops.

Maybe dungeons should be revised, and instead of character-based be unit-based. So there's this ruins where a few rebels hide. If you come with a huge army, they will see you and disappear. If you come with a small force, you can have an interesting battle and beat them. If you ignore them, they will occasionally loot the nearby settlements or something.


That's pretty good.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Stonedman on November 19, 2015, 12:32:55 PM
we want new players to stay.... so perhaps not attacking them while they are trying to establish themselves, i.e have no estates would be "nice"
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: WVH on November 19, 2015, 04:24:04 PM
If a new player messes badly with my characters they will be attacked or some sort of reaction. 

By the way, we should see about some bandits on the sea.  They start with a ship and can make landfall, loot, return to ship.  Or can they use the docks already?
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Arx on November 19, 2015, 04:31:19 PM
They can't use docks, as far as I know. Certainly they couldn't a week or so ago!
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2015, 02:39:17 AM
Likewise, a bandit is supposed to be for fun and extra RP. Attacking helpless newbie #23 who has no army is pointless. I'd hit the bigger targets to equalize the playing field, the guys who can actually be expected to mount a proper defense against my bandit. I've passed many, many new settlements with my bandit characters, and usually try to worth WITH newbies rather than murder them. I teach them how to take militia from independents, what are the best buildings to build to get a basic army going, and welcome them to the game in a friendly manner. Seeing a how my bandits usually spawn with a ridiculously powerful army, its fitting.


Now, if Tom could curb the 100-300-man heavy-soldier bandit clusterfucks, double the bandit limit, and make them much weaker, THEN we'll have some fun with bandits! Right now they're OP as all hell, in many cases, unless attacking a well-established realm.



I REALLY don't get how a bandit can roll in with more heavy infantry/cavalry and better troops than the King of the realm they're attacking. Its ridiculously imbalanced. I really think many more, yet weaker, bandits would be more fun.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Tweeznax on November 21, 2015, 02:44:05 AM
I had a bandit in the new area who saw two other characters fighting each other. After their fight concluded I engaged them both, thinking I would clear out both remaining armies, leave them on an even footing, and maybe even turn them into unlikely friends. Sadly, I don't think it worked.  :-\
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2015, 02:56:17 AM
What's important, I think, is to give normal knights more to do that they can accomplish with relatively few troops.

Maybe dungeons should be revised, and instead of character-based be unit-based. So there's this ruins where a few rebels hide. If you come with a huge army, they will see you and disappear. If you come with a small force, you can have an interesting battle and beat them. If you ignore them, they will occasionally loot the nearby settlements or something.


YES PLEASE.


I think adding more "NPC" options would be grand. I know its an RP sandbox, but we're human and have lives and can only do so much. Creating more RP through random events would be awesome.


For example, an NPC bandit attack spawns after a certain while, perhaps using a chaos number generator so its truly random, with a small number of troops relative to that of the settlement so they don't curbstomp you and just add flavor, and immediately disbands upon being defeated. The bandit does not flee, or if its possible to implement, runs a short distance away. Or, like in Mount & Blade, bandit hideouts of various types - based on terrain for flavor - that spawn little bandit attacks. The roving bandit groups attack people and settlements, and usually lose, but you need a few first ones with proper armies to assault their hideout, maybe giving some gold and resources after the conquest. :) Not sure if this is possible, but its a tried-and-true concept for these kinds of games.


This bandit spawn will also help weaken those god damn slumberblight fortresses with so many troops that no one is insane enough to take them back.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ratharing on November 21, 2015, 03:24:05 AM
Please, no NPCs. PC bandits are so much better. They provide potential for RP, and a much more meaningful interaction even if you don't communicate with them.

NPCs are just a chore.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2015, 03:36:28 AM
Yes, but an option can exist where a bandit is generated and a player can choose to "spawn as them", thus entering into an already-ongoing attack/conflict and just play it by ear, perhaps?


Or, again, many more bandits albeit weaker.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2015, 03:37:46 AM
Actually, can anyone try to suggest some bandit-specific mechanics that could be added? That might make them more interesting.


Or, hell, not just bandits.


Heathen priests, assassins, nomads... So many new things can be added to the game, really, in a limited scope so as to influence but not overpower regular first ones' influence.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ratharing on November 21, 2015, 03:42:26 AM
While I understand your problem with bandits this strong in the newly-opened land, the truth is that in all the rest of the (old and developed) realms they are not even a nuisance. In several realms you won't be able to storm any settlement with only 100 soldiers, no matter if they are all heavy cavalry.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ehndras on November 21, 2015, 09:20:39 AM
100? That's nada. :) I've seen bandits spawn with 250 or more. Unless they were abusing the mercenary mechanic back when bandits could board ships and recruit mercenaries, if Tom actually fixed that already. Dunno.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on November 22, 2015, 10:01:50 PM
While I understand your problem with bandits this strong in the newly-opened land, the truth is that in all the rest of the (old and developed) realms they are not even a nuisance. In several realms you won't be able to storm any settlement with only 100 soldiers, no matter if they are all heavy cavalry.


That is actually not true, though there targets are much more limited. My bandit has found several settlements they can just walk into in the old North, and others that have less then 10 militia.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ratharing on November 22, 2015, 10:24:31 PM
Where in the "old north"?
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ehndras on November 23, 2015, 09:38:22 AM
Thats[s another problem then. If bandits are effectively crap in established realms, then theyre not being very effective?
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Tom on November 24, 2015, 12:08:53 PM
They are not, it all depends on what you do with them. I've seen bandits that show up, suicide themselves against walls and get squished. I've seen other bandits in the same places being a royal PITA by evading, looting, engaging a weaker noble here, running to another settlement there, beating the militia of a village, looting some more, etc.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Lann on January 07, 2016, 09:26:45 PM
Please, no NPCs. PC bandits are so much better. They provide potential for RP, and a much more meaningful interaction even if you don't communicate with them.

NPCs are just a chore.


That depends.  If bandits aren't to receive gold, aren't to be able to enter a settlement and get militia, aren't to be capable of really getting anything from nobles and nobles have nothing they can give in return... then all the player interaction from a bandit begins and ends with them suiciding against a settlement.  Kinda hard to feel motivated to roleplay, when you know there's not much you can do and no real reason to interact.  If that's how bandits are to be, then yeah-- I'd prefer them controlled by AI. 
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: Ratharing on January 08, 2016, 02:13:24 AM
That depends.  If bandits aren't to receive gold, aren't to be able to enter a settlement and get militia, aren't to be capable of really getting anything from nobles and nobles have nothing they can give in return... then all the player interaction from a bandit begins and ends with them suiciding against a settlement.  Kinda hard to feel motivated to roleplay, when you know there's not much you can do and no real reason to interact.  If that's how bandits are to be, then yeah-- I'd prefer them controlled by AI.


Their potential diminishes with all the nerfs they suffer, I agree with you on that. But it's still more interesting to fight a human intelligence than an AI.


I'd be very favorable to expand their options, but make every interaction of their with nobles recorded in their history. So if someone gives them gold, it will be publicly known. And if someone gives them soldiers, the same (and how many and which type). And so on.
That would prevent the abuse of using them to attack other realms with massive armies anonymously, without destroying the potential RPs of raiding and mercenary bandits.
Title: Re: Bandit Shame
Post by: De-Legro on January 08, 2016, 02:33:53 AM

That depends.  If bandits aren't to receive gold, aren't to be able to enter a settlement and get militia, aren't to be capable of really getting anything from nobles and nobles have nothing they can give in return... then all the player interaction from a bandit begins and ends with them suiciding against a settlement.  Kinda hard to feel motivated to roleplay, when you know there's not much you can do and no real reason to interact.  If that's how bandits are to be, then yeah-- I'd prefer them controlled by AI.


We had a bandit in Elysium recently who was looting outlying farms until we were suitably annoyed to chase them down. Fun times and the bandit RP'd delightfully. There is still much that can be done with them, but like all interaction it requires effort from both sides.