Might & Fealty Community

Gameplay => Realms Chat => Topic started by: willy on April 15, 2017, 08:52:12 AM

Title: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: willy on April 15, 2017, 08:52:12 AM
I didn't give much thought to where I placed my light hearted character Willy Givens. Stuff just sort of organically happened, got control of a handful of towns around Alost and might soon take control of the scrublands Jokulvikra-Mitecir from a friendly with too many settlements. Neato, didn't give much it thought.


Then I saw this in my head:


(https://i.imgur.com/sQNtw9n.jpg)


I'm tempted to do it. Build a realm for-and-of anatomy jokes and bad puns.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 15, 2017, 12:29:11 PM
Personally, I dont have anything against this. Especially not if it unintentionally happened like this and it stays at innuendos and isn't anything blatant.


But there are definetly some people who'd have a problem with this though, and I know Tom would for sure hate this. So do it at your own risk really.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Dorian on April 15, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
That would be highly inapropriate and unnecessary.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: willy on April 15, 2017, 02:26:14 PM
The name could use some work, sure. What I see in my head usually isn't subtle....but I can see other wanting a few layers of etiquette and less low-brow humor. 


That would be highly inapropriate and unnecessary.


Are you against a light-humor realm in general, or just wiener jokes? I thought Tom had a fondness for some of the tongue in cheek Outer Tilog stuff, but I wouldn't push something no one wants. Wouldn't happen anytime soon, even if I did follow the whim.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Dorian on April 15, 2017, 08:40:14 PM
I am against humorous realms in general.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Weaver on April 16, 2017, 03:01:18 AM
You clearly haven't seen the Kverness "finger". It looks like a wee thing sticking out of Ascalon's nether regions.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 16, 2017, 03:05:21 AM
I don't see whats wrong with humor. Humor keeps things fun and intresting, and it's needed even in a heavy RP game. And something pointless that doesn't affect anyone like making a sexual joke with a realm name and form won't do any harm as long as they still play like a serious realm. It'll probably create more interaction, I can say for certain that atleast I would be more inclined to interact with a realm that has proven to be able to be fun in atleast some way rather than some other realm trying to perfectly proper.


Also, look at Finland and Sweden.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Demivar on April 16, 2017, 03:15:15 AM
You clearly haven't seen the Kverness "finger". It looks like a wee thing sticking out of Ascalon's nether regions.
We elected to re-re-re-re-rename it to Kvernes Coast. It means that someone can't proclaim themselves "Lord of the Finger"
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Weaver on April 16, 2017, 03:47:16 AM
Yeah, Lord of the Finger with the Big... Demesne.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Cipheron on April 16, 2017, 05:47:06 AM
When you make a character Tom specified a rule that you must make it a serious named character, and nothing silly, anachronistic or based on internet memes. the text describes this as a "rule" and not a guideline.

While there is clearly some wiggle-room, you could have an ironic name ("brotherhood of peace" but they're really warlike), or a really foolish character who styles themselves far above their station: Those are humorous and ironic, but the humor makes sense in character - political doublespeak and self-aggrandizing fools are a real phenomena. That's really the crux. Can the characters take it seriously in universe? If so, then load on all the subtext, irony and humor you want. If you want to make The Pirate Kingdom of Penzance with a King Blackbeard then go for it, it's pretty funny but it can be taken completely unironically in universe.

The difference is that nobody would ever found a penis-shaped kingdom and call it "Tor Phallus". That just breaks the 4th wall. It would also be an insult to the current Tors, as a joke subrealm would permanently appear as being equal in the heirarchy to serious ones, that players have spent years cultivating.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: willy on April 16, 2017, 04:18:40 PM
Ok. So the realm name is a bust. Subtlety a plus. gotcha

Those are humorous and ironic, but the humor makes sense in character - political doublespeak and self-aggrandizing fools are a real phenomena. That's really the crux. Can the characters take it seriously in universe?


I'm not sure about how serious the characters are going to take Willy in general. Comedy is kind of built for not taking serious, but there are some tricks I guess. The PIXAR-esque style of sneaking in adult humor or Discworld-style wordsmithing. I went for low-brow jester type, but the character is a serious attempt. Alot of what we create is from history or pop-culture. Some people want to create a Sun-Tzu and Tacitus. Maybe I want Aristophanes and fart jokes. How often did a phallic object elicit a giggle before the printing press, you think? Comedy taste is relative, though, so I'll try not to ply something that isn't wanted.


Granted, Aristophanes I aint.

It would also be an insult to the current Tors, as a joke subrealm would permanently appear as being equal in the hierarchy to serious ones, that players have spent years cultivating.


Hadn't really thought of that. I would rather avoid being that guy...whizzing on other people's creations. I meant to make it an area clearly marked for "fun", while still keeping within the nearby culture of Tors that I think are neat.


An actually clever name, better range of comedy material, and some subtlety in the administration of it...I can probably do that. I'll keep dabbling with the character and see where it goes. Them border's aren't happening anytime soon. Willy's just starting out and probably can't extend beyond the Iara-Miticer supply towns....a lady liege holds him by his "Ronds" and I doubt she's interested in letting go anytime soon.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andrew on April 17, 2017, 01:33:35 PM
Why is it that people assume that people in the old days weren't just as perverted and dirty-minded as people today? Here's an entire wikipedia article on the history of erotic depictions in artsy things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_erotic_depictions

Not that medieval nobility weren't pompous as all hell sometimes, but, for the record, the oldest dildo is believed to be from thirty-thousand (30,000) years ago. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dildo#History

If someone wants to make a phallus shaped realm, why do I care? Now, the question is whether or not his neighbors in game care. If they're insulted, they should let him know, be that in words or by castrating his entire realm, that's their decision.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 17, 2017, 05:25:05 PM
I'm now just imaging people declaring a holy crusade to castrate Tor Phallus, and then taking all the settlements representing the balls but leaving the rest XD.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andrew on April 18, 2017, 12:55:40 AM
Huh. Maybe we should add that as an option instead of execution.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Cipheron on April 18, 2017, 01:38:30 AM
It's no worse than being boiled in oil etc. And castration would have a real game effect, any male (only) who is castrated cannot be the father of new children.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Demivar on April 18, 2017, 01:42:24 AM
Hm. That might even give us a solution to The Arescod Problem. The rabbits shall breed no more.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: De-Legro on April 18, 2017, 12:42:23 PM
It's no worse than being boiled in oil etc. And castration would have a real game effect, any male (only) who is castrated cannot be the father of new children.


Considering death doesn't stop you from spawning new children, I doubt that something as minor as losing a part of your anatomy will.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andrew on April 18, 2017, 12:54:41 PM
Hm. Actually, may be something worth adding to the battle overhaul, is actually have major wounds tracked, and have it affect how a first one fights. Like, if you lose your hand, you can't use that hand anymore to hold an item, or if you take a serious wound to your leg it limits your mobility.

Following this logic, you could actually have the game check to see if you still have the necessary bits to spawn children when a character is made as well.

Dunno if it'd ever go that far though, because then we'd have to use some crazy explanation why you can have a child spawn from dead parents, and that just sounds annoying to explain.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: De-Legro on April 18, 2017, 01:00:19 PM
Hm. Actually, may be something worth adding to the battle overhaul, is actually have major wounds tracked, and have it affect how a first one fights. Like, if you lose your hand, you can't use that hand anymore to hold an item, or if you take a serious wound to your leg it limits your mobility.

Following this logic, you could actually have the game check to see if you still have the necessary bits to spawn children when a character is made as well.

Dunno if it'd ever go that far though, because then we'd have to use some crazy explanation why you can have a child spawn from dead parents, and that just sounds annoying to explain.


Indeed, and without being able to spawn children from dead parents you can not establish non-game ancestors. I suppose you could make it so only ancestors have that ability though.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 18, 2017, 02:21:50 PM
Maybe we shouldn't be able to spawn children to non-ancestor dead characters though? Might do something intresting, and it could make it so that you could actually make a family line go extinct, or so to say.
Though live characters who get castrated or just lose the whole thing should still be able to adopt I would say, though maybe that should only be able to happen to already live characters. Could create some intresting political situations i'd say, where some people might not recognize the adoption and so oppose their claim to the throne or something.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Demivar on April 18, 2017, 03:04:55 PM
It's worth noting that not all characters are stated/created in M&F. By preventing the creation of related characters due to death or other means, you're effectively forcing players to create/state all of their characters/children/other relatives when they might not want to. If people felt that their character was at risk of something happening, they'd have to create a child for them long before it's relevant, purely to prevent unfortunate turns of events.


For slumbered characters, the same principle applies. People make a habit of chopping up slumbered First Ones. That'd set the precedent that slumbering players, if none of their characters survived their hiatus they'd have to create a new dynasty.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 18, 2017, 03:58:12 PM
That's true I guess. I did just create a new First One to be the son of an old one who got chopped up around year 8 I think.
Though I think it would be worth it come up with a good way to deal with having castration or such in the game (as well as limb loss and other permanent injuries that not even First One magic can heal) and also be able to have new characters who are children of dead characters and castrated characters. Though there may be value in just allowing people to create characters as children to dead ones and castrated ones anyways, and make it their choice to roleplay something. If they want to have a castrated character adopt a son as a heir (might be a good thing to be able to adopt already created characters), then that could be their choice. Or they could also roleplay that they already had a son, but he was just not there but was ratehr studying or training under the mentorship of some distant First One maybe. And same with dead characters. 


Honestly yeah, that might be best really, and fall in line with Tom's vision of as much freedom as possible too.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: willy on April 18, 2017, 04:14:33 PM
I'm now just imaging people declaring a holy crusade to castrate Tor Phallus, and then taking all the settlements representing the balls but leaving the rest XD.
What I'll do, is make Jokulvikra my "tribute town". You wanna come f me up, well, castrate my realm and take that hilariously placed town. I'll send all my tribute to you there if I can't defend my manhood. I'll tell other realms to leave my good sized hinterland alone, everyone go fight in Jokulvikra for muh tribute/honor.

Maybe we shouldn't be able to spawn children to non-ancestor dead characters though? Might do something intresting, and it could make it so that you could actually make a family line go extinct, or so to say.
Though live characters who get castrated or just lose the whole thing should still be able to adopt I would say, though maybe that should only be able to happen to already live characters. Could create some intresting political situations i'd say, where some people might not recognize the adoption and so oppose their claim to the throne or something.
I dont really think anything stops a character from RP'ing a character as the son of someone not on their relations list. Illegitimate sons, hidden scions, etc. Other characters may not take kindly to it, cause there is no 'record' of it in game. They'd essentially be someone claiming to be someones child, but no records exist/kept for some reason.


Also brings me to something realm-shape-related. How loose are the views on marriages and sexings? Tor [insert some german root for "Funny Shape"] will contain a pair of polyamorous free spirits. Do they need to be sly with propositions or can they swing free? Does it vary regionally/culturally?
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Demivar on April 18, 2017, 04:40:04 PM
It'd be an un-necessary restriction. Sure, people can RP having relatives without the game knowing, but what benefit does that cause?


My 'main' character has never told anyone what relatives he may or may not have, if he suddenly died, why should I be limited as to what characters I can spawn in the future?


A good example (again) is Roran's Arescod dynasty. He did a lot of stuff with that, creating legitimate children and bastards where appropriate, killing them off and making things interesting. After his first quit (which was understandable) he wiped more or less the entire dynasty bar Richard. When he returned, he revealed 'The Red Knight' which was a bastard of a, you guessed it, dead character. Whilst slumbering, the Red Knight died.

Once we'd decided not to throw Ascalon onto the corpse wagon, we spoke about a few things, one of which being dynastic descendants. We looked through the dynasty, and Roran had free reign to do what he wanted, potentially resurrecting different subsets of his dynasty. In the end, Richard seemed like the best character to have offspring of, but that's besides the point. If such a system were in place, he'd be barred from every branch of his dynasty excluding Richard's.

We had the ability for Roran to flaunt a few ideas. He even wanted to produce a pair of twins, one male and one female and to hand them to 2 specific characters, but in the end made one given how the climate was changing. It'd just be a limiting factor, really.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andrew on April 18, 2017, 04:57:09 PM
Adoptions are on the TODO list. After families have a matriarch/patriarch.

And Demivar's hit it on the head why I don't want to restrict people's abilities to make new characters the child of others. It limits them, possibly unfairly.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 18, 2017, 05:13:38 PM
Yeah, I considered it in my post aswell that it may be best for the game by far to let people have that freedom.


Though I think a good thing to consider for the future would be some form of system to gain the traits that we currently have and maybe play around with First One babies aswell. Then you could have a choice for if you create a baby/child, who will then maybe mature over time. And you could also choose to create an older First One with experience. The difference being that with the older one you can't choose any traits or customize, it's all done. But with the young ones you may be able to influence what traits they get somehow. And then they could mature after say a few ingame years? Maybe 2? Seeing as First Ones are better in every other way I think it would be also fair to assume that they become physically mature quicker than humans.


Once something like that is in the game (if ever), then castration might be a thing. Where a castrated First One can't have a baby First One but can have an older First One who was a lost child or child who was in training or something. Possibly we could also have First Ones be able to regrow limbs and become "un-castrated" over time, say an in-game year? Which might mean that they couldn't create a baby First One during that period but could afterwards. 


Just some thoughts for the future of the game. (And I know traits don't do anything yet :P)
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Cipheron on April 18, 2017, 05:25:34 PM
Dunno if it'd ever go that far though, because then we'd have to use some crazy explanation why you can have a child spawn from dead parents, and that just sounds annoying to explain.

The child spawns as an *adult* though, on horseback, with a full set of plate armor, broadsword and shield.

If that was the literal moment of *birth* it would make less sense, they would have to be like Greek gods bursting out of the womb fully formed and armed for battle.

It actually makes much more sense to presume that their birth was 18 game years prior to the actual date, and since the game is only in year 13, all First Ones were actually born before the game started.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andrew on April 18, 2017, 05:36:04 PM
Allowing children characters that age up as time progresses is on my TODO list as well.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: De-Legro on April 18, 2017, 05:44:07 PM
The child spawns as an *adult* though, on horseback, with a full set of plate armor, broadsword and shield.

If that was the literal moment of *birth* it would make less sense, they would have to be like Greek gods bursting out of the womb fully formed and armed for battle.

It actually makes much more sense to presume that their birth was 18 game years prior to the actual date, and since the game is only in year 13, all First Ones were actually born before the game started.


Yes we should probably change the event description. But then again two character could have met for the first time 5 minutes ago and spawn an adult child between them :) So there are plenty of cases were none of it makes sense unless we wave our hands about magic. I mean whom even says First Ones have a child stage, or that the method of reproduction in any way resembles our own.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 18, 2017, 05:48:34 PM
The child spawns as an *adult* though, on horseback, with a full set of plate armor, broadsword and shield.

If that was the literal moment of *birth* it would make less sense, they would have to be like Greek gods bursting out of the womb fully formed and armed for battle.

It actually makes much more sense to presume that their birth was 18 game years prior to the actual date, and since the game is only in year 13, all First Ones were actually born before the game started.

I doubt this world for one has 18 as the age of being adult. Because that is really only the case in the modern world, and this isn't even our world.
And as I said, First Ones are superior to mortals in every other way, so it would make sense if they also mature faster (it would also make for better gameplay), I could easily see First Ones maturing in 2 in-game years, or 4. The lower you go the more fun it is for the player id say, though too low and it might be too difficult to affect the child's traits if there would be anything like that.
Also, as De-Legro said, who is to say that they have a child phase at all? It might even be that the child phase is more of a phase for their mind to mature. Basically they would birth as a baby, but would quickly grow to adult size in maybe days, and after that they might take some time to fully develop mentally and learn the ways of the world and such.



Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Cipheron on April 18, 2017, 06:11:04 PM

I doubt this world for one has 18 as the age of being adult. Because that is really only the case in the modern world

The idea people were married off at e.g. 12 and having babies isn't actually very historically correct. For example, the average age of puberty for females has FALLEN 5 years just since 1920, due to nutrition.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset)

In 1840 in England the average was about 16.5 years for onset of puberty, and it was falling about 4 months per decade right through the 1800s. Norway, which was less economically developed had the average first period for girls at 17 years at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift)

So, back "in the day" when people lived feudal existences, puberty would have started around the age of 17-18. Today for comparision, the start of puberty is around 10 years old. There was basically no such thing as your "teen years" (as we know them) back then, as most people hit sexual maturity around the time they were also considered an adult. Which was 18, not 12, as fake history would have us believe.

When they talk about marriages of under-aged people, those people were not considered adults engaged in an adult relationship, those were effectively betrothals and living arrangements. People lived in large extended families back then, so it wasn't like you had this dude with his underage wife just going for it. You'd have the husband's family also living there, with all the female relatives etc, and the young wife would be looked after by them and expected to work in the home learning from the other women. Most people lived in fairly close-knit living arrangements with their extended familes too, so you wouldn't get much "alone time" with your young wife, or any privacy. Unless you want your mom and dad and grandparents, unmarried aunts and sisters etc listening in.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Demivar on April 18, 2017, 06:15:14 PM
First ones aren't people, they're first ones. It doesn't matter what the people of the time did, I'm not a personal advocate of having characters remain as children for 4 and a half RL years.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 18, 2017, 06:25:28 PM
The idea people were married off at 12 and having babies isn't actually very historically correct. For example, the average age of puberty for females has FALLEN 5 years just since 1920, due to nutrition.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset)

In 1840 in England the average was about 16.5 years for onset of puberty, and it was falling about 4 months per decade right through the 1800s. Norway, which was less developed has average first period for girls at 17 years at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift)

So, back "in the day" when people lived feudal existences, puberty would have started around the age of 17-18. Today for comparision, the start of puberty is around 10 years old. There was basically no such thing as your "teen years" (as we know them) back then, as most people hit sexual maturity around the time they were also considered an adult. Which was 18, not 12, as fake history would have us believe.

When they talk about marriages of under-aged people, those people were not considered adults engaged in an adult relationship, those were effectively betrothals and living arrangements. People lived in large extended families back then, so it wasn't like you had this dude with his underage wife just going for it. You'd have the husband's family also living there, with all the female relatives etc, and the young wife would be looked after by them and expected to work in the home learning from the other women. Most people lived in fairly close-knit living arrangements with their extended familes too, so you wouldn't get much "alone time" with your young wife, or any privacy. Unless you want your mom and dad and grandparents, unmarried aunts and sisters etc listening in.



Huh, TIL.


Though this doesn't really matter for the current thing. People can still rule even before hitting puberty for example. Also i'm perfectly aware that the marriages of 12 year olds and such are bethrothals. (Didn't know about the puberty thing though)
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Cipheron on April 18, 2017, 06:27:56 PM
Yeah, the 12 year thing mainly comes from legal decisions that monarchs could rule at 12, rather than from any sort of investigation of what life was like for normal people. Normal people get short-shrift in traditional histories.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: Andre on April 18, 2017, 06:40:16 PM
Yeah, I think normal people were often considered children even in their twenties right? (Well, nobles aswell. Just that they might have ruled countries and led armies into battle at that age.)


Though even then, we aren't actually talking about normal people, not even normal mortal nobles. :P
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: willy on April 23, 2017, 06:01:12 PM
A place to call their own...small begginings for the small clan 'o Willy Givings....

(https://i.imgur.com/z6PbAFt.jpg)

I think I'll start small. A quirky little place...with a few too many signposts and towers...a special quarantine for my low humor.


I still wanna make a kind of light hearted backwater realm/county. This will just be, well....The Taint (https://i.imgur.com/T76OQnS.jpg).



Edit- The ol' post is taking shape. Need better puns, though. Still not sure on "Forced Slaver's Yoke" or "Forced Slaver's Joke".
(https://i.imgur.com/Yej4Klb.jpg)


The realm is still on the to-do. Thinking "Tor Phall" has a bit of a ring to it. Maybe some archaic word that means 'funny shape'.
Title: Re: Something That Probably Shouldn't Happen: The Realm
Post by: willy on June 15, 2017, 12:36:26 PM
Steeples fingers in contemplation. Soon the seahorse shall kiss the shaft, and a ancestral homeland will be born. Checks map. Damn...Tor Dun and Strenvale did look like a seahorse a month back, at least.


Not gonna go full Tor, though. A little barony or county for Givenses within a larger barbarian hierarchy. I probably will keep the wacky stuff to one estate and a jester character, innuendo and quirkiness more common.