Author Topic: Javelins  (Read 221 times)

Demivar

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Purveyor of cunning plans.
    • View Profile
Javelins
« on: June 10, 2017, 12:47:55 PM »
Javelins are broken and stupidly OP, this is a well known fact. So, here's a discussion thread for how to fix them and make them work properly.


The obvious move is to make them unusable with bows. If you've seen the numbers, it's completely ridiculous. If this can be fixed, that'd be a damned good start.


Right now, javelins are a 1-shot cannon which if used in any force will add an enormous amount of power to it at the cost of being a single use item which is resupplied at a blacksmith, making it an absurdly powerful weapon which requires a lot of micro to resupply. My thoughts are quite simply that in M&F people can often prepare for years for conflict. If people knew how stupidly strong javelins were, I'm sure that a lot more people would use them. If this happens, we'll end up with a warfare cliff. One half of players (more experienced ones, most likely) use javelins and can resupply them to varying degrees of effectiveness, the other half don't. If they meet in battle, the side with javs will, in proportion, annihilate the enemy. Warfare is already a bit daunting, but this would make even smaller scale fights really unrewarding for players. Imagine 2 armies meet in the field, fighting over a village. One knows, one doesn't, the latter gets spanked by his neighbour. I always refer to M&F's battle system as a battle resolver, as it gives a fair outcome if you consider both armies that reached the battle in isolation. This single switch of say, a shield to a javelin, can massively change the outcome of a battle.


What could be done instead, is make javelins into a cheaper skirmishing weapon. Whatever is done, I think that its role should shift from a superweapon to a ranged option in the third slot. I can think of a lot of examples where this would work effectively and remain a viable option whilst losing a lot of its incredible power. I'd also be in favour of changing javelins from a break on use item to an item with simply a much higher break rate. People might need to bring spare javelins, but it'd remove a lot of the jav vs no jav effectiveness swing.


Whatever we do, I think that the problem needs to be addressed within the game's existing code. In the future there are plans to change the combat system, but I think that changes to them in the current system would be very useful. I have some ideas of my own, but some others also had some ideas which were likely more complex, so I'll hold back for now.
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: Radovid's like you
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: but then insane
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: Dijkstra is like you

Andre

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
  • Karma: +2/-2
  • Constant boredom
    • View Profile
Re: Javelins
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 12:53:02 PM »
Andrew has said before that for now you only lose equipment when retreating, so before you could change them from guaranteed loss to higher break chance that would have to be changed. I agree though, and think whats more important really is to change their power level from that of a crossbow down to about half or three quarters of a shortbows power, possibly at most shortbow or slightly above. Possibly they could also be moved from the weaponsmith to the blacksmith instead. And ofcourse the whole no bow AND javelin thing.

willy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: +1/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Javelins
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 01:29:55 PM »
Bringing them down below shortbow effectiveness and linking to a cheaper blacksmith-build would be a good tradeoff, I think. Would help make still effective militia that were cheap and easy. Resupply would be less issue since you could forage most anywhere for pointy sticks to throw.

Weaver

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Karma: +53/-42
    • View Profile
Re: Javelins
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 04:05:59 PM »
Javelins are a stupidly ineffective weapon. I'd pity the fool who'd switch to javelins instead of horses or shields. Yeah, that would make me a fool as well. But there is a reason why I, and why other experienced leaders, will use javelins instead of other equipment.


Mechanically, the Javelin is a poor weapon, what with the updates to broadswords and the like. I will not go into details as to why in the HoO we use it, it's a bit of a trade secret, but suffice it to say that we use javelin troops for killing Nobles and preventing a situation that leads to endless skirmishing from ever getting to that point.


Javelins are relatively cheap to field and a force that has already seen one decent battle usually needs to be reorganized anyway, so resupplying them is usually not an issue. Failure to resupply the javelins leads to problems, which is again, why it is so ineffective. A longbow and crossbow are superior to javelins, but harder to field. This is one of the reasons why this option is used instead of the other two alternatives.


Third reason is attrition. Plenty of people in M&F wage war incorrectly falling into the same traps as why majority of the nations in World War 2 actually lost the war. Javelin troops fit a niche in modern war doctrine equivalent to force recon or blitzkrieg. Minimizing losses and maximizing mobility is what paves the path to victory for heavier troops in the rear.

De-Legro

  • M&F Dev Team
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • Karma: +105/-54
    • View Profile
Re: Javelins
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 04:36:04 AM »
The real key is that javelin make longbows more effective, which is just stupid. If/when battles are updated to have a range element, that would fix some of problem as javelins would be short ranged weapons. Of course the obvious quick fix is to fixed the ranged combat algorithm to not add javelin stats to other ranged weapon stats.
He who was once known as Blackfyre

Andrew

  • Game Master / Lead Developer
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Karma: +75/-7
  • Mildly Amused
    • View Profile
    • Lemuria Community Fan Site
Re: Javelins
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 10:30:28 AM »
I don't think it'd be hard to tell the game to find the best ranged weapon, or, lulz, pick one at random.
Standing for the creation of interesting things since Year 1, Week 5, Day 4.
Favorite cold beverage: Strawberry Shake
My hobbies: Fixing computers, video games, anime, manga, some other stuff, sleep (in no particular order)

De-Legro

  • M&F Dev Team
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • Karma: +105/-54
    • View Profile
Re: Javelins
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2017, 03:46:27 PM »
I don't think it'd be hard to tell the game to find the best ranged weapon, or, lulz, pick one at random.


It should not be, doesn't the game already do something similar with melee weapons and short swords?
He who was once known as Blackfyre

Andrew

  • Game Master / Lead Developer
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Karma: +75/-7
  • Mildly Amused
    • View Profile
    • Lemuria Community Fan Site
Re: Javelins
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 04:29:51 PM »
It does not, but it's all called from the Soldier's entity file, so changing how that resolves should change it everywhere. (Around: https://github.com/Zanaras/MaFCDR/blob/master/src/BM2/SiteBundle/Entity/Soldier.php#L254 if you're curious)

Actually, almost all of how soldiers interact with equipment is handled there, so I might do a bunch of changes to this this weekend.
Standing for the creation of interesting things since Year 1, Week 5, Day 4.
Favorite cold beverage: Strawberry Shake
My hobbies: Fixing computers, video games, anime, manga, some other stuff, sleep (in no particular order)