Author Topic: Top Level Position Types  (Read 208 times)

Andrew

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Top Level Position Types
« on: May 11, 2017, 11:50:30 AM »
Alright guys n gals, I've got something I need figured out, so I can implement it without having to change it a whole lot later.

I need to know what the categories of positions are. A few obvious ones are Ruler, Judge, and General, but I need to know what everyone thinks the less obvious ones are. I'd like to display these all on the realm page, and move the position list to a separate page since not everyone cares about who is the Fifth Marshal of the Southern Reaches. A mock-up of how this would look for the Grand Fate is below:

RulerPraesul Vanessa Calinus
GeneralImperator Jackson Drakon
JudgeChancellor John Hawksmoor

Adding this in will be, I believe, really simple, and it will also include the ability to rename the Ruler position, or even make other positions ruler. So, theoretically, the Grand Fate's ruler position could look like....

RulerPraesul Vanessa Calinus
Grand Councillor Aldric Fox
Grand Councillor Gaelor of the Hammer
Grand Councillor Oberyn fii'Hamad
Grand Councillor Wyn Peladon
Grand Councillor Yorda Kurima
Grand Councillor Vanessa Calinus
Grand Councillor Jacksen Drakon
Grand Councillor Artos Flambard

Hm, this could also include an electorate category for those realms like the Grand Fate that have a High Council that holds authority.

Anyways, your thoughts and ideas pelase!
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Andrew

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 11:54:36 AM »
Oh, this will also include logic for determining the importance of positions, so only positions of a certain level of importance will list here.
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Constantine

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 12:08:12 PM »

There are two types of titles in M&F. Hereditary titles connected to land-owning and various offices appointed by rulers. Land titles are set in stone: lord, baron, count, etc. Offices are unique to every realm and I like that. I don't want same offices to be obligatory in every realm.
I believe that position's level of importance can also be determined by the leader depending on the realm's governance model. It does not have to be hardcoded.

I like the idea of renaming positions, as long as it is easy to check to which generic positions they correspond. I don't understand why you'd need to "make other positions ruler" when instead you can rename your ruler and thus go for any sort of flavour you wish. You don't need to have a judge position and then make it a ruler, when instead you can rename your ruler as Grand Arbiter and be all set.

I actually believe that titles and positions are one of the features done right in this game. And while some improvements are welcome, I'm sceptical about the overhaul.

Andrew

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 12:32:06 PM »
As far as the game is concerned, both types of titles you described are the same thing. The only major difference in how they're tracked in the database is that ONE of them has the Ruler attribute set to TRUE. The Emperor of Erstes Imperium is a position within the game's database the same way that the Historian of Erstes Imperium is. The only difference is that the Emperor has been flagged as a Ruler.

Position importance levels, will be hardcoded, but selectable. That is, the game needs an easy way to interpret them, but I want players to be able to change them. This will be how the game determines which ones are on the realm overview: they'll simply be those flagged as most important for the category of position they are.

As for why you'd want a second ruler, a Royal Union could result in a situation where one Ruler is the King if Keplerstan while the other is the Queen of Keppelville. In this instance, the game could display them as:

RulersKing of Keplerstan, Bob
Queen of Keppelville, Janice

This is why I need to know what the categories are, so I can tell the game how to understand them. So it knows that Archivist Lann is the Realm Historian, and that Administrator Vella is the Realm's Banker, so on and so forth. So the game knows it needs to display them on the realm page if the ruler (for now) has set them as important enough, and it knows where to display them.
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Constantine

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 12:49:41 PM »
I still think those two types of title are very different. Landed nobility climbs in ranks independently of the ruler. Lordship position is acquired once you take over a town. Yes, your first big title is granted by your liege as he creates a realm for you but further progression is also more or less independent. Baronial to Ducal titles are acquired simply when you manually change your realm's designation and if your own liege is himself of a higher title. Likewise, you can not be stripped of your hereditary title.
Offices are completely different beasts. They are only granted by rulers, you can not change them or progress your career, you can be demoted at any moment.
The difference is actually quite tangible.


Now I agree that it is a cool feature to have two rulers. I don't know about kingdoms, but isn't it already a thing in all subrealms? You can appoint several additional people as Dukes in a single Duchy. What's wrong with that system?


I am strongly against hard-coded roles (judge, historian, etc.). Firstly, it takes away from flexibility. What if I want a completely different set of officials in my realm? Secondly, why does the game even need to know Archivist Lann is the realm's Historian? What shall it do with this precious knowledge?

Andre

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2017, 02:45:14 PM »
I don't believe you can actually rename the ruler title can you?


Also, I think something like this would be great for WC aswell, then we could easily have the electors have equal power to the king, with actual game mechanic supported power. But still have them have a different name for their title. For example. Though what I really think we need are things different positions are allowed or not allowed to do. I dont think we need any hardcoded positions.

Demivar

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2017, 02:53:47 PM »
I agree with the ideas, the custom weighting ones too. The ability to show prominent title holders on the realm page would be very useful, and interesting.


With custom titles (for ruler positions in particular) it would be quite good and useful. On a character page it would say "Praesul of the Grand Fate" and when you click on said title you can see Praesul (description) and then "Imperial tier title in the Grand Fate", which would act as the current Empress title on the page would now, which has versions in every language and makes it clear to everyone who the ruler is.


As I said before, the only issue I had was with the way this was being projected/displayed. It's best to be cautious and make sure the that the system doesn't seem to depict a hierarchy. The example used of the Grand Fate had the fault that the Grand Councillors are also the sub realm rulers, so whilst in the Grand Fate the list you showed would work, showing things like the below:


So, theoretically, the Grand Fate's ruler position could look like....
RulerPraesul Vanessa Calinus
Grand Councillor Aldric Fox
Grand Councillor Gaelor of the Hammer
Grand Councillor Oberyn fii'Hamad
Grand Councillor Wyn Peladon
Grand Councillor Yorda Kurima
Grand Councillor Vanessa Calinus
Grand Councillor Jacksen Drakon
Grand Councillor Artos Flambard



If that were another realm, and the Grand Council was comprised of Barons, Counts and Dukes combined, you'd start to see an issue where it is implicit that the council/bureaucratic hierachy is the real hierachy, where in most cases it wouldn't.

If you'd care to explain one more thing

Ruler
Praesul Vanessa Calinus
General
Imperator Jackson Drakon
Judge
Chancellor John Hawksmoor
Adding this in will be, I believe, really simple, and it will also include the ability to rename the Ruler position, or even make other positions ruler.



I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with making other positions ruler. Are you referring to multiple people holding titles which have the mechanical power of a ruler?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 02:57:35 PM by Demivar »
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Andrew

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2017, 03:35:12 PM »
Not only would this directly permit players to add positions that have the mechanical power of rulers, it would also begin the framework for other positions that have mechanical power. It's those other positions that i need the categories for, so I have some idea what players would like to see mechanics for. For Judge, this is easy, depending on how the realm's government is setup, they'd be able to create laws, or enforce them, possibly by issuing bounties or banishments or the like. Because right now, literally the only position that has fleshed out mechanics, is the ruler.

Some of these categories will have pages of mechanics dedicated to them, while others may be little more than mechanical fluff for years (historian, for instance), but the framework would exist. Down the line, when we add something cool for one of these positions, I can tell the game that anyone with a position of type "coolstuff" should have access to it.

What's likely to happen is that critical positions will get listed in the realm summary, right under the realm banner. Highly important and Critical Positions would be listed below that on the realm's info page. All realm positions would be displayed in a page linked from the realm overview page. It'd go more in detail about what the positions are, and have filters so you could tell it that you only want to see extremely important military positions, for instance. Theoretically (this sounds fun to code...).

When laws are fully implemented, we could end up with a system where certain types of position of a certain importance (or higher/lower) and/or even specific positions or lack-there-of or whatever can vote on certain changes or do certain things.
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Amble

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 12:41:25 AM »
Hey, I love the idea of adding roles with mechanics. I just don't like the way you've proposed to rearrange the realm page to allow it.

I feel like there are two things you're proposing. 1: specific roles with mechanics. 2: have the mechanical roles listed with their members on the main page and whatever other offices are deemed important enough showing.

I think part 2 doesn't add much and will detract from the flavour of realms. If I want the Judge mechanic to be held by my Oracle, I would always want my main realm page to say
Oracle: Hvitserk Farthing and then the game can mention that this makes him have the Judge role in a separate column or in brackets somewhere. I just wouldn't want my page to say Judge: Oracle Hvitserk Farthing. Then everyone would think his office is as a Judge and that he should be addressed as such and behave as such. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. 

De-Legro

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2017, 01:27:37 AM »
Personally I don't like fixed powers ala battlemaster. As I recall part of Tom's design of Realm Laws was to define certain powers and then let the Laws of the Realm assign them to particular titles.
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Andrew

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2017, 05:56:44 AM »
I have no plans to make the realm laws system strictly attached to position categories, though it could be used to apply something to a group. The types also give us something to apply a translation to, so we could have a note on each position that is translated that briefly describes it: "This is a high level military position".
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Andrew

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2017, 12:59:13 PM »
The first iteration of this is going to be loaded to testing tonight, if anyone is curious what I had in mind.
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Andrew

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Re: Top Level Position Types
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 04:03:24 AM »
This is up on testing as of last night. Any comments or concerns would be appreciated.

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Standing for the creation of interesting things since Year 1, Week 5, Day 4.
Favorite cold beverage: Strawberry Shake
My hobbies: Fixing computers, video games, anime, manga, some other stuff, sleep (in no particular order)