Author Topic: Messaging System Questions  (Read 326 times)

willy

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Messaging System Questions
« on: April 28, 2017, 04:38:18 PM »
So I might have made a booboo. During my testing of stuff I didn't find on forum/manual, I left a foreign conversation and the contact vanished around the same time. I took it as "you need an introduction to get them in your contacts, then an active conversation to keep them there". Apparently, that contact died around that time...so my science was ruined. I was trying to create a contact network for middlemen giving introductions, something to link distant lands and foff around with. I sorted through and made a conversation with most every character who was awake I had access to before checking the dead character. Now I'm not sure if a few foreigners are stuck with an extra 20 contacts. Ctrl-f works for me, I still have to hunt with 50 contacts and the character is in a backwater, but they seem tiffed.


Can I get clarification on adding/removing contacts? Is there a better way to build a contact network? Should I just limit myself to 1v1 convos to avoid landon stone shortage?

Demivar

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 04:50:27 PM »
So I might have made a booboo. During my testing of stuff I didn't find on forum/manual, I left a foreign conversation and the contact vanished around the same time. I took it as "you need an introduction to get them in your contacts, then an active conversation to keep them there". Apparently, that contact died around that time...so my science was ruined. I was trying to create a contact network for middlemen giving introductions, something to link distant lands and foff around with. I sorted through and made a conversation with most every character who was awake I had access to before checking the dead character. Now I'm not sure if a few foreigners are stuck with an extra 20 contacts. Ctrl-f works for me, I still have to hunt with 50 contacts and the character is in a backwater, but they seem tiffed.


Can I get clarification on adding/removing contacts? Is there a better way to build a contact network? Should I just limit myself to 1v1 convos to avoid landon stone shortage?
You have lendan contacts with all living characters with which you share a conversation.


Not quite sure what you're trying to achieve by doing what you're doing, but my recommendation would be to request people for links with specific, semi-important characters, whilst making contacts with everyone else that you can personally.


If people have no other options, they could ask you to establish contact with them and someone else, in which case you know who they're talking to.


Else, you're just spreading unnecessary lendan contacts.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 04:57:55 PM by Demivar »
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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 04:55:41 PM »
So, my main character has a contact list that has almost broke 1000 contacts.

Building yourself up as a middleman is a great idea, but people tend to dislike having a bunch of contacts on their list for people they don't have any use for. If you want to build a contact network, and truly be a middle man for this stuff, it's best to do a bunch of 1 on 1 conversations with people. This way you, yourself, are the only person who has all the contacts. Which makes you useful to others. And keeps other people happy because their contact list isn't bloated.

Once I finish my current project, I do fully intend to add a search box to contacts, and I have an idea of how to do it, though it may make larger contact piles far, far longer to load. Though I may have ideas for that as well. Some PHP trickiness and database queries to get sovereign realms of people. :)
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willy

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 06:16:48 PM »
You have lendan contacts with all living characters with which you share a conversation.


So people can 'opt out' by leaving the conversation and those extra contacts disappear. That was what I thought, but I guess I'm not the only one who was unclear on that.


Not quite sure what you're trying to achieve by doing what you're doing, but my recommendation would be to request people for links with specific, semi-important characters, whilst making contacts with everyone else that you can personally.


That's what I started. It got kind of messy and I forsaw a bazillion threads eventually, just to keep the contacts. As long as people can ditch the thread, I was hoping to link the local middlemen together and have a kind of global introduction service. Having a list of "alive, responsive, and open for personal messages" list seemed like a decent idea as well. A kind of pet project, at least until a better option comes up for my diplomat. Also, I assume contacts disappear if you realm-swap or go independent. I kind of needed a 'head count' before...stuff.


If people have no other options, they could ask you to establish contact with them and someone else, in which case you know who they're talking to.


That was the idea. A bunch of pencil pushers who 'introduce' you by creating a conversation linking you and someone you otherwise wouldn't be able to reach. Honestly, one character per realm could probably finish the network, but I decided to cast a wide net while I'm limited.


So, my main character has a contact list that has almost broke 1000 contacts.

Building yourself up as a middleman is a great idea, but people tend to dislike having a bunch of contacts on their list for people they don't have any use for. If you want to build a contact network, and truly be a middle man for this stuff, it's best to do a bunch of 1 on 1 conversations with people. This way you, yourself, are the only person who has all the contacts. Which makes you useful to others. And keeps other people happy because their contact list isn't bloated.

Once I finish my current project, I do fully intend to add a search box to contacts, and I have an idea of how to do it, though it may make larger contact piles far, far longer to load. Though I may have ideas for that as well. Some PHP trickiness and database queries to get sovereign realms of people. :)


I started with the 'shadow master of the network', but it seemed easier to make it public and steer things from the shadows...while people watch what happens in the light, teehee.


1000 contacts sounds like it might get wonky, but like I said...ctrl-f and search the first few letters of a name. Works a dream if you can recall the names. Probably quicker than an integrated search box, if the box has to load a new page, too. Might help to have a way to sort the contacts. Realm/county or friend/foe list kind of thing. Message system has some quirks, but I do like it more than Battlemaster's message system.


Thanks for the responses.

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 06:31:39 PM »

So people can 'opt out' by leaving the conversation and those extra contacts disappear. That was what I thought, but I guess I'm not the only one who was unclear on that.



That's what I started. It got kind of messy and I forsaw a bazillion threads eventually, just to keep the contacts. As long as people can ditch the thread, I was hoping to link the local middlemen together and have a kind of global introduction service. Having a list of "alive, responsive, and open for personal messages" list seemed like a decent idea as well. A kind of pet project, at least until a better option comes up for my diplomat. Also, I assume contacts disappear if you realm-swap or go independent. I kind of needed a 'head count' before...stuff.



That was the idea. A bunch of pencil pushers who 'introduce' you by creating a conversation linking you and someone you otherwise wouldn't be able to reach. Honestly, one character per realm could probably finish the network, but I decided to cast a wide net while I'm limited.



I started with the 'shadow master of the network', but it seemed easier to make it public and steer things from the shadows...while people watch what happens in the light, teehee.


1000 contacts sounds like it might get wonky, but like I said...ctrl-f and search the first few letters of a name. Works a dream if you can recall the names. Probably quicker than an integrated search box, if the box has to load a new page, too. Might help to have a way to sort the contacts. Realm/county or friend/foe list kind of thing. Message system has some quirks, but I do like it more than Battlemaster's message system.


Thanks for the responses.


Last time someone spammed Hawks with these sort of message requests it did not end well for the initiator.
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willy

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 08:11:39 PM »
Last time someone spammed Hawks with these sort of message requests it did not end well for the initiator.
Sometimes things don't work out for people if they ignore an organized group who are whispering behind their back ;).... all more the fun! Plus, I wouldn't create a weaselly diplomat if I wanted things to end well for him.


I get why Kings with 10 estates and 15 vassals might have plenty to talk about and shun participating. It's why you enlist people with less to do. Diplomats dedicated to info wars and such, so you still get the benefit with none of the work. Did the Hawks agree unilaterally to "kill the messenger"? Are there maybe two or three knights who might have enjoyed having better access to new people and information? As long as people can ditch it by leaving one conversation, I don't see the harm. I figure people who are interested will join, people not interested will leave, I'll do my casual best to keep track and avoid being a nuisance. If I can get one diplomat from each realm together, then I can link anyone to anyone else through intermediaries. Anyone succeed at that?


Feedback has been overwhelmingly negative, which surprises me. I expected someone to go "Oh, yeah, someone already did that...let me link you". I assume Kings and such have other Kings contacts, so they can arrange RISK-style backstabbings and whatnot. I don't expect a boondock spymaster to change the game dynamic drastically.

Demivar

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 02:08:24 AM »
Sometimes things don't work out for people if they ignore an organized group who are whispering behind their back ;) .... all more the fun! Plus, I wouldn't create a weaselly diplomat if I wanted things to end well for him.


I get why Kings with 10 estates and 15 vassals might have plenty to talk about and shun participating. It's why you enlist people with less to do. Diplomats dedicated to info wars and such, so you still get the benefit with none of the work. Did the Hawks agree unilaterally to "kill the messenger"? Are there maybe two or three knights who might have enjoyed having better access to new people and information? As long as people can ditch it by leaving one conversation, I don't see the harm. I figure people who are interested will join, people not interested will leave, I'll do my casual best to keep track and avoid being a nuisance. If I can get one diplomat from each realm together, then I can link anyone to anyone else through intermediaries. Anyone succeed at that?


Feedback has been overwhelmingly negative, which surprises me. I expected someone to go "Oh, yeah, someone already did that...let me link you". I assume Kings and such have other Kings contacts, so they can arrange RISK-style backstabbings and whatnot. I don't expect a boondock spymaster to change the game dynamic drastically.
What we've got, is too many shitty knight offers in realms across the north of the map, and too many new players being given the precedent that the way to go is to randomly spawn new characters and to walk around taking free land. What you'll find across the existing realms is that there's an actual respect for culture. Realms and culture are incredibly important to M&F, which is why you don't see people trying to do this kind of stuff anywhere else. People will talk within their own realm where appropriate, and outside of it with good reason.


I understand your point that it might be nice for people to have other options for people to talk to, but again this emphasises the point that it's easy to forget the importance in a traditional sense of realm loyalty. Random characters going "I spoke to this other guy in a different realm and he seems cool, so I might take my stuff and join them instead" and dismissing what should normally be assumed as generations of familial ties would be completely reprehensible in almost all circumstances. Interesting inter-realm situations can arise, but there has to be a real desire for it to happen. It's very easy to transcend borders to talk to every man and his dog, but by doing so these relations become arbitrary. The most influential characters have accumulated contacts throughout years of work and interaction, rather than a random character's spray-and-pray attempts to exchange a word with as many people as they can.


If you want a weaselly diplomat sort of character, send him wandering about a bit and see what he comes back with. For most characters to speak to someone beyond their borders there has to be a concerted effort to do so, and there is always some weight and meaning behind it. I'll say again that by doing this, you're making something that should be somewhat difficult and abnormal into an arbitrary action. It's easy enough as it is to forget where traditional loyalties should lie, by making contacts so broadly accessible it erodes the very nature of how politics become interesting.


Rather than knowing everyone, but knowing no one, you could always try to talk to people within a couple of un-dissimilar realms and see whether something interesting crops up through your conversations. The Lowlands in particular and their buddies have a focus on the whole independence/lack of liability thing. Without actual hierarchies being embedded as part of their culture, it's easier to make things happen by opening up dialogue with more of those (sub) realms.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:17:08 AM by Demivar »
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willy

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 02:56:08 AM »
I did randomly spawn my 4 characters more or less, almost all on the northern part of the map. Around Eldamar: my liege died immediately, Western Confederation my liege suicides after a month. The Lowland's Tor I'm in has been active and helpful, but I can attest to "whoops, spawned character in the wrong spot...wut do?"


I was going to just ditch the north east, but I found some guy who speaks spanish sitting all alone after Harald got sleepy. Doesn't seem interested in abandoning the area he's invested in, plus I ended up gathering a few knights, so now I feel invested there and probably won't roam. When there are only 4 knight offers standing...and 2 of them are mine cause damn Harald Dubaine had fat tracts of land...I figured I could work with what I started with and be a better liege than a dead one. Western character I got RP invested in (and he has the fanciest town of all my characters, so he'll get to roam after a militia-stack).


I do like how localized economies/communication makes the game more personal. It can still be personal with an avenue to reach someone across the map, though. At least, an avenue that doesn't require an IRL month and risking the character. As far as realm loyalty, well...that will probably be what it is regardless. There will (and probably should) always be an element of espionage in a medieval strategy game. Medieval cause who wasn't a gossip when there wasn't any reality tv...strategy cause knowledge is a weapon that wins wars.

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 03:05:34 AM »
Sometimes things don't work out for people if they ignore an organized group who are whispering behind their back ;) .... all more the fun! Plus, I wouldn't create a weaselly diplomat if I wanted things to end well for him.


I get why Kings with 10 estates and 15 vassals might have plenty to talk about and shun participating. It's why you enlist people with less to do. Diplomats dedicated to info wars and such, so you still get the benefit with none of the work. Did the Hawks agree unilaterally to "kill the messenger"? Are there maybe two or three knights who might have enjoyed having better access to new people and information? As long as people can ditch it by leaving one conversation, I don't see the harm. I figure people who are interested will join, people not interested will leave, I'll do my casual best to keep track and avoid being a nuisance. If I can get one diplomat from each realm together, then I can link anyone to anyone else through intermediaries. Anyone succeed at that?


Feedback has been overwhelmingly negative, which surprises me. I expected someone to go "Oh, yeah, someone already did that...let me link you". I assume Kings and such have other Kings contacts, so they can arrange RISK-style backstabbings and whatnot. I don't expect a boondock spymaster to change the game dynamic drastically.


Firstly, Hawks in general hates diplomats. The realm by design is largely isolationist. We are mostly happy being the misunderstood belligerent realm. Secondly if someone wants to make the effort cultivating contacts, travelling and developing relationships I can respect that. If someone just wants to mass spam the game world and call it diplomacy, that just pisses me off. The message system is in my opinion a bit to restrictive, but there is a reason the game doesn't just give you everyone's contact. The only player that I can think of that succeded in anything close to want you want no longer plays. He went by the name Goldens.
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willy

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 11:59:47 AM »
I can respect an isolationist realm doing it's thing, I can respect a message system that doesn't have it's pants on all the way. I can even respect just not wanting to be involved. What I guess I'm failing to get is people avidly against a public access thread or network. Especially if you have to 'get to know' x person to have them introduce you to y person who might be useful. Sure, I can take a IRL year to manually go peg people with stones and invite them to join, probably get killed by a bandit (just to be that one guy who can get you in contact with anyone)....but would anyone noble born actually do that?


I'm glad someone got close to a network. I'd could do it with individual contacts and conversations, but that'll get messy with the system (and be prone to the entire network crumbling in people cleaning up old convos).  I expect when guilds or newbie-help-groups come through then it'll help. I don't expect it to be much different, though, mostly just a public access board that they (maybe) can leave or join based on who they know and if they want to be there. We'll see how malusnetwork 0.1 does. Maybe I'll probably scrap the whole plan if it looks to go bellyup.


Not sure if your pissed that I'm not having meaningful interacting with people through the method (which comes later) or just that it's cheap and spammy. How is one thread any different than individually messaging each person, giving the same spiel. 1 quarantined spam thread or a bazillion conversations that probably end up as a lot of copy/paste (and missing contacts when people clean up "2 participants"). If I can make the messaging system efficient, then neato. If noone cares, then 'ah well I tried'.


Unless realms/regions are built for slumberblight to be a "catching disease"; characters stranded in isolated blightlands get ground down to despair by the loss of all their friends/family. That case, well played. Medieval RP to a T.

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 06:45:11 PM »
Such a welcoming community we have, don't we?

Demivar

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 01:13:28 AM »
It's still a good idea, and I wouldn't be disheartened from making characters like that. That being said, I'm trying to help here, really. Going shotgun-blast style on contacts is just, eeh,


Politics and interactions are fundamental parts of M&F, and I just think that they're more interesting when things are somewhat ambiguous. By all means, reach out and talk to people, acquire information. As far as I'm aware, Goldens was successful because he spent a lot of time talking to a lot of people, and through time the list of people that he knew and could talk to & exchange/acquire information with/from grew to the point where he had a lot of useful knowledge from across the world.


The idea? Good. The contacts list system? Not quite. If you reassess what you're trying to achieve, you might find that approaching it from a different angle might be quite helpful. Reach out and talk to people, find stuff out, but just sticking everyone in contact isn't beneficial, whether they know it or not. As I said before, being a relations broker between the northern sub-realms might be a good idea. There's pockets of players scattered about that don't adhere to strict hierarchies, and making who you want to talk do so with others that you want them to talk to could make things quite interesting.


If you want a good, recent example of how imperfect foreign contact can make things interesting, look at the Idraei realm thread, mid-page 7 and beyond. It isn't completely clear, but you can see how these things have a really interesting impact on people's perceptions of events. I won't scream out the exact version of events on the forums because that'd be boring, but I'd strongly recommend reading through that stuff and getting the jist of it.


http://forum.mightandfealty.com/index.php?topic=3780.90
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 01:15:36 AM by Demivar »
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willy

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 11:28:36 AM »

The idea? Good. The contacts list system? Not quite. If you reassess what you're trying to achieve, you might find that approaching it from a different angle might be quite helpful. Reach out and talk to people, find stuff out, but just sticking everyone in contact isn't beneficial, whether they know it or not. As I said before, being a relations broker between the northern sub-realms might be a good idea. There's pockets of players scattered about that don't adhere to strict hierarchies, and making who you want to talk do so with others that you want them to talk to could make things quite interesting.


I'll keep toying with the idea, see if it can be improved. Everyone's criticism has been helpful, for the most part, but I need an alternative that makes a network more resistant to falling apart (needs to be less messy than micromanaging small conversations to keep foreign contacts). Just keep in mind my masochism has limitations. It took me 4 separate conversations (3 people involved) to get in touch with 1 neighboring Queen. Was fun, kind of a game of telephone, but multiply that by 20 or 30 and you can see my hesitation to take "the hard route". Maybe there is a mix/balance I'll find between 'mass stone-mail', manual data/character mining, and getting a network where other people can help other people and it isn't solely 1 character's burden.


Honestly, I still haven't figured out how to add recipients to a conversation. I could probably work this backwards from my original plan. It would still amount to spamming people with offers to "join the network", though. Character would go build an "approved list" of interested characters (rather than a do-not-call/omit list from the message-all thread), then add people to a master "request-spam-thread".


A thread dedicated only to people posting "can someone introduce me to knight/lord/bandit so-and-so?" is a bit limited, after some thought. Expanding the "public lobby thread" for help requests, misinformation/propaganda, and/or 'gossip' might be worth a try. I was avoiding it initially for most of the same reasons I think other's disliked my general idea. Oh, and as to 'beneficial': There are about 10 people I haven't had a chance to get in a conversation with. 10 contacts lost when that character (likely) leaves the Lowlands. If nothing else, it's a way to keep interested barbarians in touch with that character until I have a chance to proposition them.


Might help to mention that the character for this is essentially my 'flex' character. Someone who sits defending a fort/city and I just message people with schemes if I have spare time. See if I can impact the world with a "charasmatic defender" who never leaves the tavern. Hell, after a brigand attack he has more glory than any neighboring Duke/King. He's already doing something right.


Brigand baiting is a hoot, btw.

De-Legro

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Re: Messaging System Questions
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2017, 01:53:27 AM »

I'll keep toying with the idea, see if it can be improved. Everyone's criticism has been helpful, for the most part, but I need an alternative that makes a network more resistant to falling apart (needs to be less messy than micromanaging small conversations to keep foreign contacts). Just keep in mind my masochism has limitations. It took me 4 separate conversations (3 people involved) to get in touch with 1 neighboring Queen. Was fun, kind of a game of telephone, but multiply that by 20 or 30 and you can see my hesitation to take "the hard route". Maybe there is a mix/balance I'll find between 'mass stone-mail', manual data/character mining, and getting a network where other people can help other people and it isn't solely 1 character's burden.


Honestly, I still haven't figured out how to add recipients to a conversation. I could probably work this backwards from my original plan. It would still amount to spamming people with offers to "join the network", though. Character would go build an "approved list" of interested characters (rather than a do-not-call/omit list from the message-all thread), then add people to a master "request-spam-thread".


A thread dedicated only to people posting "can someone introduce me to knight/lord/bandit so-and-so?" is a bit limited, after some thought. Expanding the "public lobby thread" for help requests, misinformation/propaganda, and/or 'gossip' might be worth a try. I was avoiding it initially for most of the same reasons I think other's disliked my general idea. Oh, and as to 'beneficial': There are about 10 people I haven't had a chance to get in a conversation with. 10 contacts lost when that character (likely) leaves the Lowlands. If nothing else, it's a way to keep interested barbarians in touch with that character until I have a chance to proposition them.


Might help to mention that the character for this is essentially my 'flex' character. Someone who sits defending a fort/city and I just message people with schemes if I have spare time. See if I can impact the world with a "charasmatic defender" who never leaves the tavern. Hell, after a brigand attack he has more glory than any neighboring Duke/King. He's already doing something right.


Brigand baiting is a hoot, btw.


Reasonably sure the "add to conversation" function is not implemented.
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