Author Topic: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege  (Read 436 times)

Cipheron

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 10:38:10 AM »
We could add new buildable item for entourage to carry called shackles, and then make it so when you actually took thralls you had to carry them around a bit.

It'd make the travel speed calculations more fun to do though. Hm.

That would still leave the issue of where carried thralls are tracked in the database. A better solution would be an entourage member type which has an inventory which can hold the thralls. That could just be camp followers by adding a "thralls" option to the drop-down choices. Personally, I'd suggest this as the best all round solution. The system will be complex enough with this change, it probably doesn't need to be over-thought.

Then you'd just need to modify the thralls-looting code so it works more like the food-looting code, i.e. minimal changes and you have working code to base it off. You'd even get the "prisoner transfer" functionality, for free! The only thing you'd really need to code afresh is updating the calculations for food consumption, assume that the thralls get given food last, and how to deposit thralls into a settlement.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:48:06 AM by Cipheron »

Demivar

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 12:57:19 PM »
I quite like the idea of thralls joining the baggage train, I can think of a lot of scenarios where that'd make things interesting.
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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2017, 01:11:57 PM »
De-Legro posited on Discord that they'd be best as part of the prisoner system, because it's the logical placement for them.

The feeding system in general would need overhauled though, regardless of where we add them, if they become part of character unit groups.
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De-Legro

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2017, 01:58:51 PM »
De-Legro posited on Discord that they'd be best as part of the prisoner system, because it's the logical placement for them.

The feeding system in general would need overhauled though, regardless of where we add them, if they become part of character unit groups.


And we would want to be careful that people don't find it a viable tactic to do things like load several characters with a few hundred thralls each and then camp them in a enemy settlement to starve them out.
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Weaver

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 02:43:49 PM »
Just loot all the settlement's pop, and problem solved. Who waits for starving anyway.

De-Legro

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2017, 04:36:24 AM »
Just loot all the settlement's pop, and problem solved. Who waits for starving anyway.


People outside of walls of large towns.
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willy

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 07:37:51 AM »
People outside of walls of large towns.
kek.


I'm sure mechanics to disrupt/block trade and thralls will happen eventually. Wouldn't mind seeing it possible with spys, to be honest.

Cipheron

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 09:15:19 AM »
Does pop looting during a siege work near the town? Well then it seems the exploit isn't as one-sided as claimed.

The Vintroth

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 09:53:53 AM »
Does pop looting during a siege work near the town? Well then it seems the exploit isn't as one-sided as claimed.

You can loot for thralls (which is what I assume you are talking about) outside the walls yes. However, you will understand that it does not help if I loot perhaps (I don't remember the exact number from when I tried) 6 thralls when they just sent in 50-100 thralls. It is not really viable. Even more so considering that the cooldown to loot is the same.

Demivar

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 10:12:09 AM »
Does pop looting during a siege work near the town? Well then it seems the exploit isn't as one-sided as claimed.
Yes, but the effects are negligible. The effects of several parties consisting of over a thousand men looting purely for thralls from outside the walls, against a decent sized garrison with defences takes almost nothing away from the population. When the defences broke down to only wooden walls, and the ratio of thralls to civilians was 6:1, economic security remained "adequate". Do also note that thralls taken does depend on settlement size; the population was down to the wire for some more defences breaking, and as such this number was very small. If you consider that the besieging forces would need to loot for thralls rather than for food (which has been exceptionally scarce), this becomes even less viable. If I had coordinated perfectly with all of the people there, and had them loot every 4 hours, we could have provided a bit more pressure on the walls.


The number of thralls that can be sent without issue from miles away is vastly higher than what can be looted from the settlement. The population drops in the settlement per recalculation have been very large, but even then, these thralls if dispatched in a semi-well organised way can at-least delay a siege by a significant amount of time.


We were almost completely sure that the walls would drop within a day, and hence we allowed our hungry/near starving mercenaries and cannon fodder troops to stay outside the walls so that they could partake in the assault and go home. We lost 80% of our mercenaries and all of their camp followers, as well as burning through vast amounts of food beyond what we're comfortable with (or had supplied our parties to sustain) due to the age old issue where you assume a delay is temporary, and more and more delays pile on. If we'd known, we would have rotated our besieging forces more, however other than a sudden influx of thousands of food we saw no viable way that the siege was not going to end.
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willy

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 10:35:24 AM »
I guess a sieging army can't always control all in-out peasants. A underground slavery railroad might exist, that the folks looking at the gates miss. I'd rather see looting your own settlement for thralls to be the viable tactic to trying to survive a siege. Press-ganging all your people until the siege breaks/town rebels, rather than min/max trade.

Demivar

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2017, 10:40:41 AM »
I guess a sieging army can't always control all in-out peasants. A underground slavery railroad might exist, that the folks looking at the gates miss. I'd rather see looting your own settlement for thralls to be the viable tactic to trying to survive a siege. Press-ganging all your people until the siege breaks/town rebels, rather than min/max trade.
Particularly in this case, this is a large scale siege on what was at the time a substantial settlement. Also, if you were to look at the map, please do tell me how in this instance it would be viable to get the thralls even to the border of the province?

Actually, 2 more things. The thralls are coming from absolutely miles away, yet even if they came from nearby(ish), M&F population works on equilibria. The population that they take from their homes to the besieged settlement will be naturally replaced in a fairly timely manner, at a negligible temporary cost to the sending settlement's owner.

The next is that I wouldn't refer to trading in this situation as min/maxing. The settlement could have withstood a siege if other people were willing to send thousands of food from their own territory for an unknown amount of time at great personal cost. The game currently doesn't work off food inside/outside the walls, so as I've said before I don't mind how the system works (if it does so as intended) in absence of a full siege/assault warfare system.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 10:49:11 AM by Demivar »
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willy

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2017, 11:14:40 AM »
It is what is what it is for now. I think they'll tweak it, though.


As for trading, I don't see the smuggling of food any different than thralls. Controlling flow in/flow out is what a siege is supposed to be about. Cut 'em off, taunt them, hope no one backdoors you. Pop min/maxing when people are born with a hammer in their hand (by the buttloads from food) it's the same as the slave workforce. Either way there's no "Ha, you are cut off from everything and can't do anything about it." "But, ahah sir, my friends promised to help me! It's only a week march...and they need time to gather...and they haven't been that reliable before..."

Demivar

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2017, 11:23:13 AM »
It is what is what it is for now. I think they'll tweak it, though.


As for trading, I don't see the smuggling of food any different than thralls. Controlling flow in/flow out is what a siege is supposed to be about. Cut 'em off, taunt them, hope no one backdoors you. Pop min/maxing when people are born with a hammer in their hand (by the buttloads from food) it's the same as the slave workforce. Either way there's no "Ha, you are cut off from everything and can't do anything about it." "But, ahah sir, my friends promised to help me! It's only a week march...and they need time to gather...and they haven't been that reliable before..."
Of course they'll tweak it. It's taken loads of work to get M&F in a position where the server can move and development can continue for the first time in... years. The point still stands that M&F would do very well with a new system, however the current one is mostly fit for purpose in current circumstances.


Whether you see food smuggling & thrall smuggling as the same it doesn't matter: You're wrong. Atleast with food, it actually costs something to the person sending it, and by sending thousands of food, the siege will last longer, but there's the drawback of the besiegers actually eating the food that you sent there. It's one of the reasons that I don't mind the current system, some of its inaccuracies actually work out in the end in a relatively consistent manner.


You're forgetting that to besiege somewhere is a massive commitment of resources, you're talking about putting a large contingent of your army in a settlement where there's nearly nothing to eat, purely with the intention of breaking down the defenders, causing mass flight & starvation and (in M&F terms, see some of their defences crumble for a less horrendously expensive assault



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willy

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Re: Exploit: Thralls During a Siege
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2017, 11:44:32 AM »
Of course they'll tweak it. It's taken loads of work to get M&F in a position where the server can move and development can continue for the first time in... years. The point still stands that M&F would do very well with a new system, however the current one is mostly fit for purpose in current circumstances.
Agreed


Whether you see food smuggling & thrall smuggling as the same it doesn't matter: You're wrong. Atleast with food, it actually costs something to the person sending it, and by sending thousands of food, the siege will last longer, but there's the drawback of the besiegers actually eating the food that you sent there. It's one of the reasons that I don't mind the current system, some of its inaccuracies actually work out in the end in a relatively consistent manner.
Ah, you're talking mechanically. I was thinking literally. Yeah, there should be ways of helping hold a siege town for gameplay reasons...I just don't think anything through the gates makes sense. Maybe better peasant/thrall efficiency during siege. Maybe players strategy becomes about stockpiling food with a quick way to do that. A 'work day' action for the peasants to stockpile food and no other labor, keeping a emergency reserve stockpile. Something you'd have to build up with some time.


You're forgetting that to besiege somewhere is a massive commitment of resources, you're talking about putting a large contingent of your army in a settlement where there's nearly nothing to eat, purely with the intention of breaking down the defenders, causing mass flight & starvation and (in M&F terms, see some of their defences crumble for a less horrendously expensive assault
Way things are now, a town with a good food reserve in storage would outlast an army looting, right? I'm not 100% on who eats when. An assaulting force could rotate troops and resupply? 2 companies hold the town, 1 heads back for fresh troops/trainees. Rinse repeat depending on who's starving. I think that is essentially how it should, and kinda does, play out. I'm all for anything else that would make the sieger/besieged get to know each other really well. How long is 10 years IG? Probably long enough for someone to say "f this...my character built a big horse now let me in and lets just end this".