Author Topic: Being Cancerous.  (Read 998 times)

Andrew

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2017, 02:43:50 PM »
A newbie conversation wouldn't be hard to create, it'd just have to be controlled as a separate part of the turn management system.

Custom intro messages are on my todo list, and are something I'll take a look at this weekend. I also need to reconstitute my local build (which also means that I make sure everything in my github repo actually works correctly), and I wanted to work on properly integrating the conversation system, as well as expanding it a little to allow special system conversations. This would allow the creation of a GM thread or player-to-player conversations or new player help conversations. Ideally, these conversations wouldn't populate your contact list, but they would give you places to discuss things. And I should be able to figure out how to pass variables in messages so you can do things like "Welcome [CHARACTER] . . . " and have it replace it appropriately.
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Foxglove

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2017, 02:45:18 PM »
And?

And it ecourages the idea that in order to get any vassals you have to be online a lot in order to be there if someone accepts a knight offer. This sort of thing is fine for those who would be online anyway, but is detrimental to those players who aren't, but would also like to have knights

If you're a new player who's looking to accept a knight offer, you're probably more inclined to go to an offer where the person who posted it is online. If that pattern of behaviour with the acceptance of knight offers emerged, it would make it virtually pointless for anyone who wasn't prepared to hang online in expectation of an arrival to post any knight offers at all. Sure, those who join the game may eventually look to accept a knight offer somewhere other than where they started. But they may also be limited in that by estate limitations of the free accounts.

Also, it would be great if all of the players who were to hang around online all the time were largely benevolent mentors, but we know from the history of the game that players who exhibit that sort of playing behaviour are much more inclined to be heavily into the military aspect of the game, and into aggressive empire building. Think back to the beginning of the game when there were many hyper-active players and you may recall that they blew everyone else away to the detriment of the entire game. I'm far from convinced that putting them largely in charge of new player induction would be a great idea.

But I have to say that I'm not decrying the contributions hyper-active players can make to a game. There are good ones who will think first and foremost about how they can make the game better by providing a good start to a new player. But, what I am saying, is that there are also other ones who will see it simply as a way of recruiting new players to strengthen their own domination game.

As with any idea, I think the positives have to be weighed against the negatives. That's all I'm doing, rather than just kicking dust on your idea.

Also, from the point of view of the new player, putting them under the wing of a hyper-active gives them an incorrect view of what the game actually involves. If they do indeed seek to play beyond the area where they start, they'll have to deal with the more casual players who appear to be in the majority at this time. Players who won't answer letters within minutes, and won't take actions every turn.
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Foxglove

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2017, 02:48:09 PM »
This would allow the creation of a GM thread or player-to-player conversations or new player help conversations. Ideally, these conversations wouldn't populate your contact list, but they would give you places to discuss things. And I should be able to figure out how to pass variables in messages so you can do things like "Welcome [CHARACTER] . . . " and have it replace it appropriately.

Yes, I definitely think it might be helpful to have some sort of cross-realm new player help conversation inside the game, if that's what you mean by that.
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De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 12:25:04 AM »
And it ecourages the idea that in order to get any vassals you have to be online a lot in order to be there if someone accepts a knight offer. This sort of thing is fine for those who would be online anyway, but is detrimental to those players who aren't, but would also like to have knights

If you're a new player who's looking to accept a knight offer, you're probably more inclined to go to an offer where the person who posted it is online. If that pattern of behaviour with the acceptance of knight offers emerged, it would make it virtually pointless for anyone who wasn't prepared to hang online in expectation of an arrival to post any knight offers at all. Sure, those who join the game may eventually look to accept a knight offer somewhere other than where they started. But they may also be limited in that by estate limitations of the free accounts.

Also, it would be great if all of the players who were to hang around online all the time were largely benevolent mentors, but we know from the history of the game that players who exhibit that sort of playing behaviour are much more inclined to be heavily into the military aspect of the game, and into aggressive empire building. Think back to the beginning of the game when there were many hyper-active players and you may recall that they blew everyone else away to the detriment of the entire game. I'm far from convinced that putting them largely in charge of new player induction would be a great idea.

But I have to say that I'm not decrying the contributions hyper-active players can make to a game. There are good ones who will think first and foremost about how they can make the game better by providing a good start to a new player. But, what I am saying, is that there are also other ones who will see it simply as a way of recruiting new players to strengthen their own domination game.

As with any idea, I think the positives have to be weighed against the negatives. That's all I'm doing, rather than just kicking dust on your idea.

Also, from the point of view of the new player, putting them under the wing of a hyper-active gives them an incorrect view of what the game actually involves. If they do indeed seek to play beyond the area where they start, they'll have to deal with the more casual players who appear to be in the majority at this time. Players who won't answer letters within minutes, and won't take actions every turn.

No you aren't looking at it logically. If you are not a super active player, you likely DON'T want new players accepting your knight offers. All that will happen in 90% of cases is the offer is consumed, you aren't around, the player quits and moves on and you are left reclaiming troops. Further players looking to dominate don't generally want knights or more players. It has long been established that single players or small tight knit groups are much more efficient at dominating large areas of the map. That has been the thrust of multiple forum posts for years. Those highly interested in highly efficent military domination are not generally inclined to make knight offers. They simply do it themselves. So the concern for them mentoring people is reduced.

Now players like the sorely missed Ratharing and others like Dorian and Flambard, highly active players that are also highly communicative and who all have good track records of building realms full of interest and players. Those are the sorts of "online" players that hopefully the system would direct new players too, and hopefully do so when they are actually online, because as we know from the forums even those of us whom are super active find the majority of knight offers fail without any communication if they happen to be offline.

The thrust of this concept is not to favour one group of existing players over the others, frankly in regards to this I couldn't care less about the existing players. This is entirely about creating a first impression of the game that stands some chance of enticing players to stick around. When we are at the point where many players can't be bothered offering knight offers due to the terrible retention rates, arguing that group x would like knights too is rather redundant. The game needs knights and new players far more then some play style group does.
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Foxglove

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2017, 01:34:48 AM »
No you aren't looking at it logically. If you are not a super active player, you likely DON'T want new players accepting your knight offers. All that will happen in 90% of cases is the offer is consumed, you aren't around, the player quits and moves on and you are left reclaiming troops. Further players looking to dominate don't generally want knights or more players. It has long been established that single players or small tight knit groups are much more efficient at dominating large areas of the map. That has been the thrust of multiple forum posts for years. Those highly interested in highly efficent military domination are not generally inclined to make knight offers. They simply do it themselves. So the concern for them mentoring people is reduced.

Fair point, well made.

Those are the sorts of "online" players that hopefully the system would direct new players too, and hopefully do so when they are actually online, because as we know from the forums even those of us whom are super active find the majority of knight offers fail without any communication if they happen to be offline.

It's hard to pin point why players fail to be retained as often as they do (if we set aside the proportion who just try the game for a few minutes/hours and take against it). I put a lot of effort into giving some new players a lot to do recently and they still ended up going inactive after a week or so. They'd been provided with a strong political intrigue where they had to make a lot of interactions, and they were provided with all the usual stuff (troops, estates, etc). They seemed to remain interested in this for a while, but not for much longer than a few days.

There seems to be a great deal of grinding that existing players have to go through to get new players into the game in general, and we know that the terrible retention rates make most people give up on knight offers completely. Perhaps we need to think about ways that will reduce that grind and make it a less frustrating experience. Battlemaster has a lot to teach us there. Even though it has middling retention rates, the ways it goes about introducing new players is no where near as intensive as it is here.
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Jazzkovsky

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2017, 10:45:23 PM »
After reading through this thread and as a new player, a would like to ask a possibly stupid question.

I started playing MF roughly two weeks ago and am still in the process of learning the ropes. I accepted three knight offers on my first day and two of my characters are still working for their respective lords and will probably keep doing so.

Now that I got the basics, I would like to create a small, independent county with the possibility for growth. In the original post of this thread it was indicated that their are lots of opportunities for new realms without stepping on the toes of existing players. I really wonder where those opportunities might be. The map seems to be covered with existing realms, so even if you find a settlement that is owned by a non active player, chances are very high that the settlement is already part  of a larger realm. And the very few independent settlements (i.e. not part of a county, duchy, kingdom or empire) that are free to take (i.e. owned by players who aren't playing anymore) are enclosed by large empires. So, if I am a new player, wanting to create a new realm wich actually stands a chance and does not initially piss other players off, how exactly would I proceed? Because that isn't at all clear for me.

Andre

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 11:36:24 PM »
After reading through this thread and as a new player, a would like to ask a possibly stupid question.

I started playing MF roughly two weeks ago and am still in the process of learning the ropes. I accepted three knight offers on my first day and two of my characters are still working for their respective lords and will probably keep doing so.

Now that I got the basics, I would like to create a small, independent county with the possibility for growth. In the original post of this thread it was indicated that their are lots of opportunities for new realms without stepping on the toes of existing players. I really wonder where those opportunities might be. The map seems to be covered with existing realms, so even if you find a settlement that is owned by a non active player, chances are very high that the settlement is already part  of a larger realm. And the very few independent settlements (i.e. not part of a county, duchy, kingdom or empire) that are free to take (i.e. owned by players who aren't playing anymore) are enclosed by large empires. So, if I am a new player, wanting to create a new realm wich actually stands a chance and does not initially piss other players off, how exactly would I proceed? Because that isn't at all clear for me.



I can't answer the question really but you could look for places with inactive lords and see if their realms are also inactive as a whole, which would mean that you wouldn't be bothering anyone. I also don't think a big realm will really care all that much if you take a few inactive settlements, but don't really quote me on that, I can't really say.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2017, 01:37:42 AM »
After reading through this thread and as a new player, a would like to ask a possibly stupid question.

I started playing MF roughly two weeks ago and am still in the process of learning the ropes. I accepted three knight offers on my first day and two of my characters are still working for their respective lords and will probably keep doing so.

Now that I got the basics, I would like to create a small, independent county with the possibility for growth. In the original post of this thread it was indicated that their are lots of opportunities for new realms without stepping on the toes of existing players. I really wonder where those opportunities might be. The map seems to be covered with existing realms, so even if you find a settlement that is owned by a non active player, chances are very high that the settlement is already part  of a larger realm. And the very few independent settlements (i.e. not part of a county, duchy, kingdom or empire) that are free to take (i.e. owned by players who aren't playing anymore) are enclosed by large empires. So, if I am a new player, wanting to create a new realm wich actually stands a chance and does not initially piss other players off, how exactly would I proceed? Because that isn't at all clear for me.

You wouldn't be completely independent, but Hawks would provide a good opportunity to create a new realm. Most of their vassal realms are basically semi-autonomous nationstates that only provide a tithe and troops if called upon by the Ruler (as far as I know this has never happened on a realm-wide scale for Hawks.

Jazzkovsky

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2017, 01:49:46 AM »
Thanks for the response, it helped. I hope I didn't put this thread too far off topic. :)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 09:24:22 PM by Jazzkovsky »

Foxglove

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2017, 01:10:05 PM »
The Grand Fate is also pretty similar and has a history of nurturing realms. In the Grand Fate, realms are pretty independent but reach collective decisions by voting. It's probably as close as you could get to being an independent realm while still being under the wing of a large coalition of realms.

On the other hand, if you want to go completely alone, you should probably try to identify an area of the map where there are a lot of slumbering characters and then take an estate and see if any response comes from the realm it supposedly belongs to. It's entirely possible that the realm as a whole could be pretty much inactive. There are a lot of inactive areas out there once you start really looking. If that proves to be the case, and there's no response to you taking an estate, take another and see what happens then. Taking this approach, you're rolling the dice and seeing what happens. You could end up forming your own independent realm. Or you could provoke a military response, in which case just move on and try the same thing some where else. You'll get there eventually, but prepared for failures before success.

However, by far the easiest way to form a realm is to join one of the large existing realms that has land to spare and just ask them to help you create a sub-realm in their lands. As I say, I know that the Grand Fate is open to this. And Hawks also, by all accounts.
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Jazzkovsky

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2017, 09:29:47 PM »
I think I got the idea. I already have a charcter serving a very large realm, so for now I'm going to take my chances with rolling dices. :)  Thanks for all the input, though.

Dorian

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2017, 08:26:17 AM »
Frankly speaking, making small sovereign realms doesn't payy off at this point due to bad player retention. Going solo with a dozen estates would probably bore you to death.