Author Topic: Being Cancerous.  (Read 989 times)

Constantine

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 12:25:38 PM »
You used to really hate sarcasm. What happened?


But yes, while this behaviour is not necessary directed at me personally (which I don't rule out either because it did happen in the past), it is definitely a concerted attempt of a group of trolls (or a single asshole) trying to disrupt the game for everyone.


There are reports from other people who put up knight offers. Behavioral patterns show that these are not new players who don't know what they're doing or just abandon their new characters.

Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 03:50:58 PM »
I just thought of a possible exploit people could be doing.

e.g. say there are tons of knight's offers, and nobody is taking yours. Then someone could in fact spawn fake characters, clear out all the rival knights offers and delete the characters. This would make sense: if someone is spamming fake knights to clear out the offers so that they get more knights, they would stop doing it once they've filled their quota of knights. And it wouldn't necessarily be a newbie player doing this sort of thing, it could actually be someone pretty high up with a bad attitude (i.e. they want to hoard new players to work for them rather than you).

So some limits on accounts accepting knight's offers would be appropriate. Just as the game limits you making new characters as you get more and more, perhaps accepting knight's offers should also cap out, to prevent exploitation of the system.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 03:54:21 PM by Cipheron »

De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2017, 12:38:17 AM »
I just thought of a possible exploit people could be doing.

e.g. say there are tons of knight's offers, and nobody is taking yours. Then someone could in fact spawn fake characters, clear out all the rival knights offers and delete the characters. This would make sense: if someone is spamming fake knights to clear out the offers so that they get more knights, they would stop doing it once they've filled their quota of knights. And it wouldn't necessarily be a newbie player doing this sort of thing, it could actually be someone pretty high up with a bad attitude (i.e. they want to hoard new players to work for them rather than you).

So some limits on accounts accepting knight's offers would be appropriate. Just as the game limits you making new characters as you get more and more, perhaps accepting knight's offers should also cap out, to prevent exploitation of the system.

Would not the limits on spawning new characters limit the use of this? Besides if someone is doing this, they are just as likely to be creating fake accounts to take up the knight offers.
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Demivar

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2017, 04:31:00 AM »
It would seem slightly counter intuitive if the people that wanted knights were willing to thwart the attempts of all other players to do so. Knights aren't a source of power, they're a source of interest. The idea of intentionally depriving other players of knights doesn't seem conducive to the mindset of someone who wants to get knights for themselves.


The issue I've found is an atmosphere of distrust. If I know who a player is, that they have good motives and aren't playing with the intent to support the player's other characters, I'd be more than willing to fork out large amounts of land and resources (which in our case are relatively scarce). What we have now is a situation where no new knights are deemed as trustworthy enough to be worth the potential loss of power. If I give up a settlement and the player slumbers, I lose some troops & resources. If I give up a settlement and they use it maliciously, the loss of troops has a 200% impact, as the troops I've lost are gained by the "enemy". Plus, dislodging nobles from their castles is difficult. See: Sander and Tyvandor of Arescod.


A lot of opportunities are going to be opening up in Ascalon soon, but we can't start recruiting for it now, as so many of the newly spawned characters are going crazy all over the map, and the last thing you want in a fragile, militarily weak country is to fork off more troops & land to people that are going to fuck with you.


Also, Gustav. Back off on Constantine. Fairshore & Emperor's Largess have had good knight offers out consistently for a long time now, something that I've stopped doing for a while.


Some time ago, I had a few semi-active nobles with potential rocking up, but their timing was awful and I had to say to them that I have literally nothing for them to do, and that it'd take quite some time before interesting stuff starts happening again. It felt awful to do, because at least 2 of those players were somewhat promising. I put up knight offers in Arescod, but all of them were consumed by people that were never going to stick around. I wanted to put up more, but you can't put up knight offers from afar & the last thing you want it to have characters spawn in the quietest, most stable corner of the realm, where they have to travel for RL days to even start to try M&F.
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Constantine

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2017, 11:18:57 AM »
So some limits on accounts accepting knight's offers would be appropriate. Just as the game limits you making new characters as you get more and more, perhaps accepting knight's offers should also cap out, to prevent exploitation of the system.
This is a terrible idea which makes situation it is supposed to redeem much worse. See, that's exactly how you prevent people from ever getting any knights. You want to mess with someone, you take his knight offers and idle the characters. Great, now he's never getting any knights.


Not to mention the number of players consistently putting up knight offers is so low there will be no knight offers for weeks if limitations are set in place.



Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2017, 02:17:55 PM »
This is a terrible idea which makes situation it is supposed to redeem much worse. See, that's exactly how you prevent people from ever getting any knights. You want to mess with someone, you take his knight offers and idle the characters. Great, now he's never getting any knights.


Not to mention the number of players consistently putting up knight offers is so low there will be no knight offers for weeks if limitations are set in place.

you've completely got that backwards. I was saying that accepting knights offers should be capped. i.e. one account can only take a limited number of knights offers per day.

I didn't say anything about capping the creation of knights offers.

Right now someone could spawn 4 knights on a brand new account, then take 4 knights offers and idle those characters. Some type of limitation on that could be helpful. e.g. if new accounts didn't have the ability to spawn all 4 characters in one day and take 4 knight's offers straight away and idle them, then things might be a bit better gated. And it also avoids the problem of the super-keen new player who takes everything then decides they're really not that interested and stops playing. Let them feel the ropes with a single knight, then be able to make another one every 24 hours. In both these cases it would reduce the number of "wasted" knights offers, meaning that on average, more would be available.

Another idea would be if lords could rate knights belonging to different accounts. That account could gain a currency called "honor". Then you could prioritize that certain knight's offers require a minimum amount of  "honor" to be able to accept them. So that new players aren't totally left out, new accounts would start with a small amount of "honor" so that they can still accept some knight's offers but there's a barrier to accepting too many. Lords would still be able to post "zero honor" costing offers, the same as now, but those ones would be more at-risk of being taken by trolls.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 02:33:09 PM by Cipheron »

Constantine

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2017, 04:41:28 PM »
you've completely got that backwards

In that case I retract my previous statement. Although that is still not very effective. Given how few knight offers are usually up a troll can keep messing with the entire server just having half a dozen accounts.
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Another idea would be if lords could rate knights belonging to different accounts.
How will you be able to discern if a knight belongs to the same account if he has a different surname? And if there was that would be bad for the game imo.
But hey, look at our reputation system. People usually drop your rep not when your honour is questionable but when they feel slighted by you. So if you're into wars, conflict and roleplay you'll end up with low rep even if your character is chivalry incarnate.

Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2017, 11:04:51 PM »
Well the way I said it, it was like a type of credit. You just earn more of it, you don't lose it. But you can spend it to take more knights offers. e.g. it would work something like this:

- each account would start with e.g. 40 "honor" points. The minumum cost of taking a knights offer would be 10 "honor" points. So if you blew through that and trolled 4 lords, then that's it for your account. Or, they could pimp for the "40 honor" really good offer, taking that off the market, but then they've used up all the knight's offers for their whole new troll account.

Another part of it would be that there could be an economy here. When someone takes your knight's offer you /earn/ the honor points that went into the offer. So suck on that trolls.

So that lords can give out regular rewards there should be a trickle of actions that earn more honor:

- gaining vassals through knight's offers, 50% of the amount spent
- your vassals gaining vassals, e.g. 25% of the amount spent
- 1 per-game-day for each vassals and/or active knight's offer that you post, but with a low cap (e.g. 2 points per day, for both combined, basically to encourage those /without/ vassals to post more offers)

Then each lord could have a "bestow honors" action under politics, limited to one reward per week per vassal knight. Sure, a troll could exploit this with multiple accounts to earn most honor points and take e.g. 2 10-point knight's offers per week, but that's just allowing the "trolled" players to stockpile these extra credits.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 01:27:37 AM by Cipheron »

Constantine

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2017, 12:16:57 PM »
This system is not very friendly to new players. While player retention is the main goal of the whole knight offer system.

Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 01:14:41 PM »
A new player shouldn't need to take more than 3-4 knights offers. So a points system would in fact only gate those who exploit it.

EDIT And in fact, I'd like to see a tiny bit more effort need to create characters, to help with the whole spamming issue. e.g.:

- rather than being able to completely skip the character description, you have some minimum required number of characters to fill in, and you're advised to expand on it later.

- possibly even every living character should be required to have ancestors. e.g. at least your parents are known. This would encourage players to flesh out their backstories and link characters with existing ones.

Sure, some extra requirements like this could scare off a few new players, but the benefits are that the ones that stick through the character-creation system will be more invested in their characters, and it will penalize character-spamming for troll type accounts. An honest player only has to do this once, a spamming player has to do it every time they make fake characters.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 06:20:19 AM by Cipheron »

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2017, 02:49:57 PM »
Minimum character counts just lead to fluff or a string of one letter or something pointless to fill space.

I've toyed with the concept of players having families rather than just characters, then making it so the only way you escape your family is to marry another, which could be interesting, but I'd be hesitant to do that at this stage.

I am open to changes to the new player entrace/character creation/welcome system though.
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Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2017, 04:43:37 PM »
The idea was actually that their description becomes visible to the lord when they accept the knight's offer. If they spam junk then that is a red flag. Maybe the description of the new knight can be messaged to their lord when they sign up.

Or perhaps instead of just offers we need a two-way matching system, perhaps as an alternative. People who've put effort into crafting their knights could advertise their virtue, then receive offers from lords to start with them. I mean a lord shouldn't just hire someone with an offensive joke name at random.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:49:21 PM by Cipheron »

De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 01:13:00 AM »
The idea was actually that their description becomes visible to the lord when they accept the knight's offer. If they spam junk then that is a red flag. Maybe the description of the new knight can be messaged to their lord when they sign up.

Or perhaps instead of just offers we need a two-way matching system, perhaps as an alternative. People who've put effort into crafting their knights could advertise their virtue, then receive offers from lords to start with them. I mean a lord shouldn't just hire someone with an offensive joke name at random.


Yes, I have thought of such a system. Likewise knight offers could be something you apply for rather then simply take. Problem is people already find the start of the game tedious unless their Lord happens to be online, making a system that slows down entering the game further is likely going to be somewhat contentious.


Something I would like to look at adding is an indication of whether the creator of a knight offer is currently online, to hopefully make those first few hours more likely to be rewarding for new players.
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Foxglove

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 02:55:05 PM »

Something I would like to look at adding is an indication of whether the creator of a knight offer is currently online, to hopefully make those first few hours more likely to be rewarding for new players.

The drawback of that is that it would tend towards urging the more zealous players to hang around logged into the game all the time just in case someone accepted a knight offer because they're perpetually online. From what I understood, Tom's vision for the game was to encourage a more casual and relaxed playing style. Not to further encourage the online 24/7 brigade.

But we definitely do need more ways to ease new players into the game. Something that may help is giving the player who makes the knight offer the option to pre-write a customized welcome letter to replace the standard one that's sent to a new recruit when they become a vassal (optional, of course, with the current one as standard default). If you could write a customized welcome letter you could then include a set of instructions for the newcomer to give them something to do until you return online to deal wiith them personally.

We should also remember that notifications, if the player wants them, can be used to recall a player to the game when something like a knight offer being accepted happens.
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De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 01:49:52 AM »
The drawback of that is that it would tend towards urging the more zealous players to hang around logged into the game all the time just in case someone accepted a knight offer because they're perpetually online. From what I understood, Tom's vision for the game was to encourage a more casual and relaxed playing style. Not to further encourage the online 24/7 brigade.

But we definitely do need more ways to ease new players into the game. Something that may help is giving the player who makes the knight offer the option to pre-write a customized welcome letter to replace the standard one that's sent to a new recruit when they become a vassal (optional, of course, with the current one as standard default). If you could write a customized welcome letter you could then include a set of instructions for the newcomer to give them something to do until you return online to deal wiith them personally.

We should also remember that notifications, if the player wants them, can be used to recall a player to the game when something like a knight offer being accepted happens.

And? The place you start is not necessarily where you end up. Decry the highly active players all you want, but for retention of those playing for the first time, timely and in depth contact and support are crucial. If there is a collection of players better able to provide that then the general playing population we should certainly be taking step to utilise that advantage. Once people have actually seen what the game has to offer they can make the decision on if the game actually suits them and then look to find the liege and realm that suits them.

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