Author Topic: Being Cancerous.  (Read 982 times)

Demivar

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Being Cancerous.
« on: March 07, 2017, 08:09:45 PM »
M&F's a quiet game, particularly now, we all get that.


*Spawns in character, takes over settlement, opens up knight offers to form a new realm*


When you're told by a character that arrives within an RL day that there's lots of opportunities, just not here, that indicates that the region will at least have some activity in the future, I honestly thought that the remaining players would think "Ok, I'll try somewhere else then". Seems not. Despite being told explicitly, some little bugger seems adamant to make their own little realm sandwiched into a corner, even though they know damn well it would never last.


Now I have to draft in lots of people to kill them, which isn't enjoyable for anyone, just a massive pain in the arse. I honestly thought we were past this point. Do people still really think that pulling stunts like that will serve any other purpose than to royally piss off the players still around that are trying to be helpful?
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Dorian

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2017, 10:02:41 PM »
Why is MF particularly quiet now?


Regardless, there appears to be a large influx of players right now. I wonder if the game is being advertised. Random villains taking over towns are always an issue. It is probably imprinted in the mindset of the players.

Demivar

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 12:47:47 AM »
Why is MF particularly quiet now?


Regardless, there appears to be a large influx of players right now. I wonder if the game is being advertised. Random villains taking over towns are always an issue. It is probably imprinted in the mindset of the players.


Generally speaking, the courts of most of the classically large, active realms have been quiet. I know that the Hawks gave large amounts of resources to some new players who formed Tel'Ajin and were encouraged to secede, but other than that not much has been going on.


As for the new players, I've noticed a fair few new accounts, and more importantly a lot of new characters gobbling up every fealty offer out there. I am pretty sure that there's a new advertising campaign which has massively higher % click rates than the previous one, so more people with browser game tendencies from across the internet are being exposed to M&F.  I have my own thoughts on the kind of players M&F needs, though I already mentioned that in a dead thread a couple of weeks ago.


In this instance, however, you could tell from the number assigned to the player's banner that they've been around for quite a long time. I kinda expected such players to be less prone to such things, though it seems not. Not that I'm mad about it, it's just a nuisance. At what point is this sort of stuff ever a good idea? One thing it does point out however, is how stupid the Mercenaries system is. I could make some very good suggestions on how to improve the system (we have a campaign of Dominions 4 on right now, and that system is quite interesting) but there's far more important things to spend limited dev time on. With mercs, they don't really add anything to the game, and it'd probably be better if they were just removed outright with the potential to readd them with a much better system a long way down the line, but that'd need to be synced with so many other economic improvements for it to be worthwhile.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 01:11:24 AM by Demivar »
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: Radovid's like you
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: but then insane
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: Dijkstra is like you

De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2017, 01:53:08 AM »

Generally speaking, the courts of most of the classically large, active realms have been quiet. I know that the Hawks gave large amounts of resources to some new players who formed Tel'Ajin and were encouraged to secede, but other than that not much has been going on.


As for the new players, I've noticed a fair few new accounts, and more importantly a lot of new characters gobbling up every fealty offer out there. I am pretty sure that there's a new advertising campaign which has massively higher % click rates than the previous one, so more people with browser game tendencies from across the internet are being exposed to M&F.  I have my own thoughts on the kind of players M&F needs, though I already mentioned that in a dead thread a couple of weeks ago.


In this instance, however, you could tell from the number assigned to the player's banner that they've been around for quite a long time. I kinda expected such players to be less prone to such things, though it seems not. Not that I'm mad about it, it's just a nuisance. At what point is this sort of stuff ever a good idea? One thing it does point out however, is how stupid the Mercenaries system is. I could make some very good suggestions on how to improve the system (we have a campaign of Dominions 4 on right now, and that system is quite interesting) but there's far more important things to spend limited dev time on. With mercs, they don't really add anything to the game, and it'd probably be better if they were just removed outright with the potential to readd them with a much better system a long way down the line, but that'd need to be synced with so many other economic improvements for it to be worthwhile.

Players/characters at all levels are opportunistic. If you have fealty offers, or allow spawning in a settlement that is not well protected against takeovers chances are you will face this behavior. In my opinion if a player makes a habit of this, that is not really okay. But from a character level I can see the case for this to occur on a small scale.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 11:58:33 PM »
Honestly I have to ask what else a new player can do? Often where they spawn either no one will talk, or the person they have to talk to is across a vast distance. Even if the person talks to them, it's often a demand to bow the knee. If I were coming into this game with no prior knowledge, I wouldn't get a good impression of being a part of other realms.

Demivar

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 12:32:21 AM »
I don't necessarily blame new players, people can come with wildly different assumptions on what they should do. In this case, it was an existing player.


The point I was trying to make however, is that I'm shocked that at this stage some of the existing players still around think it's a good idea to intentionally mess with people, particularly in realms that typically aren't very strong. I'm personally on the other end of the spectrum. If I spawn a new character I'll suck up to whoever is the local ruler and do whatever they ask. If someone's trying to create activity for the community I'll do whatever I can with my character to help them do that. Even in cases with quiet, purely militaristic nobles I'll still try to avoid messing them around.


I'm sort of surprised, to be honest. If you want that kind of gameplay there's far more fast paced, populous browser games out there. M&F's good, but the gameplay is boring and unenticing unless you commit to the long haul, and simply embrace the vast number bugs, questionable design choices, unfinished elements and the fact that the playerbase is smaller than it really needs to be.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 12:34:38 AM by Demivar »
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: Radovid's like you
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: but then insane
22:34 - Roran Hawkins: Dijkstra is like you

De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2017, 12:39:03 AM »
I don't necessarily blame new players, people can come with wildly different assumptions on what they should do. In this case, it was an existing player.


The point I was trying to make however, is that I'm shocked that at this stage some of the existing players still around think it's a good idea to intentionally mess with people, particularly in realms that typically aren't very strong. I'm personally on the other end of the spectrum. If I spawn a new character I'll suck up to whoever is the local ruler and do whatever they ask. If someone's trying to create activity for the community I'll do whatever I can with my character to help them do that. Even in cases with quiet, purely militaristic nobles I'll still try to avoid messing them around.


I'm sort of surprised, to be honest. If you want that kind of gameplay there's far more fast paced, populous browser games out there. M&F's good, but the gameplay is boring and unenticing unless you commit to the long haul, and simply embrace the vast number bugs, questionable design choices, unfinished elements and the fact that the playerbase is smaller than it really needs to be.

If your character is a firebrand, ambitious and/or immoral then taking such an opportunity is fitting. What generally is lacking is the RP and such that needs to go with it. If someone spawns, takes the settlement and never even bothers to talk to you, well it is hard to argue that is good for the game in any way. If they do it and engage you in a war of words, then perhaps you gain an incentive to keep playing, to push back against this upstart and teach him the benefits of respecting fealty.

Unfortunately most people apparently can't be bothered to type messages, regardless of what they are doing.
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Constantine

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 10:27:08 PM »
I was the only one keeping up knight offers for a few days. Someone methodically accepted my every knight offer and promptly idled the characters or tried to mess with me somehow (like steal my villages). I really want to know if that was the same person harassing me and if it was I would like that person to be punished. Otherwise I see no reason to put knight offers up ever again and basically to play this game at all. Although I know that Andrew, Legro and Weaver are working on the code, this game increasingly feels like an abandoned project in practice.

Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 06:30:55 AM »
Maybe some barriers to that sort of thing could be put in place.

The soldiers that you give someone should still be technically loyal to the lord who awarded them. How about saying that if a new knight tries to subvert the issuing Lord then the troops refuse to cooperate, making the takeover attempt much, much slower. To make an allowance for times you want someone to take over a town, you could say that if they have mobilize permissions, then the troops' misgivings are overruled.

Another thing that's a problem is when a new knight idles. Perhaps have a much shorter inactive time period for new knights, and the troops revert to the Lord then. The same if a new knight disbands all the troops: they should wander off to the Lord instead. Or back to the town they came from.

Players shouldn't need to be *punished*, the game should create natural in-game barriers to negative behaviour.

~~~

Also, the game should be incentivizing knight's offer creation much more. One idea is to automatically spawn some knight's offers for areas which have been slumbering for a long time. e.g. have subrealms that automatically recruit new knights. This should happen after elections are fixed however. It would a good balance between bringing in new players and maintaining historic realms.

And put restrictions on going rogue for new knights, maybe you can't do that for 2 weeks.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 06:36:32 AM by Cipheron »

Constantine

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 11:50:40 AM »
Players shouldn't need to be *punished*
They absolutely should if they purposefully engage in destructive and harassing behaviour.

Dorian

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 07:25:36 PM »
I was the only one keeping up knight offers for a few days. Someone methodically accepted my every knight offer and promptly idled the characters or tried to mess with me somehow (like steal my villages). I really want to know if that was the same person harassing me and if it was I would like that person to be punished. Otherwise I see no reason to put knight offers up ever again and basically to play this game at all. Although I know that Andrew, Legro and Weaver are working on the code, this game increasingly feels like an abandoned project in practice.


I concur that it is very demoralizing trying to create something and people abusing your good intentions. Especially if you're one of the few still caring. People volunteering to develop the game are always to be cherished and appreciated, but I agree with you: the actual improvements on the game are terribly slow and probably only wishful thinking at this point. While it can still be a pleasing game, this project doesn't appear to be going places anytime soon.

De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2017, 01:52:17 AM »

I concur that it is very demoralizing trying to create something and people abusing your good intentions. Especially if you're one of the few still caring. People volunteering to develop the game are always to be cherished and appreciated, but I agree with you: the actual improvements on the game are terribly slow and probably only wishful thinking at this point. While it can still be a pleasing game, this project doesn't appear to be going places anytime soon.

Until the current Dev team controls the actual production server, we are limited in just what we can implement. There are now several changes that have been made and can be seen in the various repositories, but we simply can't push them live.

Maybe some barriers to that sort of thing could be put in place.

The soldiers that you give someone should still be technically loyal to the lord who awarded them. How about saying that if a new knight tries to subvert the issuing Lord then the troops refuse to cooperate, making the takeover attempt much, much slower. To make an allowance for times you want someone to take over a town, you could say that if they have mobilize permissions, then the troops' misgivings are overruled.

Another thing that's a problem is when a new knight idles. Perhaps have a much shorter inactive time period for new knights, and the troops revert to the Lord then. The same if a new knight disbands all the troops: they should wander off to the Lord instead. Or back to the town they came from.

Players shouldn't need to be *punished*, the game should create natural in-game barriers to negative behaviour.

~~~

Also, the game should be incentivizing knight's offer creation much more. One idea is to automatically spawn some knight's offers for areas which have been slumbering for a long time. e.g. have subrealms that automatically recruit new knights. This should happen after elections are fixed however. It would a good balance between bringing in new players and maintaining historic realms.

And put restrictions on going rogue for new knights, maybe you can't do that for 2 weeks.

I recall speaking about this long ago, when Tom was still engaged in development. I called for the reclaiming troop mechanic to be delayed on knight offers, so that after a week or two, when you were able to really see how the knight was going to work out, you still had the opportunity to recall. No matter what the eventual solution this absolutely needs fixing. People offering 1 troop knight offers because they are scared of losing troops or worse does nothing to foster the game atmosphere we supposedly desire.
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Cipheron

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 02:35:38 AM »
They absolutely should if they purposefully engage in destructive and harassing behaviour.

My point was that the exploits should be addressed, not put in place a "punishment" system for utilizing exploits. That is just another way to drive players away. "You're not playing properly" is just another form of toxic behavior.

De-Legro

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 02:57:08 AM »
My point was that the exploits should be addressed, not put in place a "punishment" system for utilizing exploits. That is just another way to drive players away. "You're not playing properly" is just another form of toxic behavior.

Fixing the underlying mechanics issue is indeed far more helpful then punishing players. While some players no doubt use the mechanics to harass, I believe the vast majority are simply trying to play the game and get ahead just like most other players.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Being Cancerous.
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2017, 09:42:37 AM »
I was the only one keeping up knight offers for a few days. Someone methodically accepted my every knight offer and promptly idled the characters or tried to mess with me somehow (like steal my villages). I really want to know if that was the same person harassing me and if it was I would like that person to be punished. Otherwise I see no reason to put knight offers up ever again and basically to play this game at all. Although I know that Andrew, Legro and Weaver are working on the code, this game increasingly feels like an abandoned project in practice.

Yes, I'm sure it was the exact same person every time that has some weird vendetta against you.