Author Topic: Bringing In Players  (Read 5780 times)

Andrew

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 12:47:24 AM »
I wonder if it would help if we just made a field where you could type in an ambition when you created the character, and whenever you select that character to play it reminds you what that ambition is/was.
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De-Legro

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2016, 01:15:32 AM »
I used the private fields that already exist for that sort of info when creating the background of characters.
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Cipheron

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2016, 07:53:12 AM »
No need for a new system

how about just showing the character "Goals and Secrets" on your summary screen, along with a link to edit it? It would make it more convenient to keep any type of notes about what the character needs to do.

~~~

Also, the days/weeks/months thing is really confusing to a new player. Basically it's the last thing in the manual, when it should be explained before you even kick off.

New players might click to move, discover it's going to take "3 days" to get anywhere, then decide "this game is so slow, this sucks" and not log in again. No need to basically advertise that your game is 4 times slower than it really is.

having RL-days and in-game days is ambiguous, even to established players communicating ETAs on things. "weeks" in building production means 36 RL hours (I think), and it's not a very useful measurement, since troop production is in game-days, so you need a calculator to meaningfully convert values to see if your building production is on track with training consumption.

I would argue for renaming day/month as something unambiguous like cycle/moon, since we don't want to break the game's internal date system, this would achieve that, and "years" are long enough that they're not going to caused issues. Possibly, get rid of mention of the "week" altogether, as having a cycle of 36 hours Real-time is not at all useful.

~~~

here's a related suggestion: along with all building production amounts, show amount consumed at current training rates for all weapons/armor. that would avoid needing a calculator to see if there are overall shortages or surpluses.

~~~

BTW really think about that thing I said about putting time-limits on slumbered lands. Creating new lands causes the "settler rush" as people go to forge new kingdoms, but when old lands fall to "slumber", they're not recycled. This is the real cause of slumberblight: lands that effectively have no owner, but new players look at the map and they appear occupied. If areas of the map that are completely slumbered are gradually eroded (through stages of slumbered, unowned/in kingdom, unowned/no kingdom), then new players always have a place to claim, and kingdoms who "owned" those provinces have a hard time claiming they own them - if you did nothing for months while those towns eroded away, you have little objective claim to them.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 09:22:56 AM by Cipheron »

Taarkiin

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2017, 08:48:50 AM »
As a new player, I think a smaller map would suck. It's kinda disheartening to see the entire map already taken up by realms. Alot of new players  like the idea of starting something themselves from scratch. I think the map needs to be bigger. when I joined, I hoped the dark blue area's were unexplored and more hidden land was there, but Ive been told thats not the case.
Maybe several instances of the same world would be cool. Players could decide if they want to play in a old, already established world, or join a complete new one.

Cipheron

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2017, 10:12:23 AM »
As a new player, I think a smaller map would suck. It's kinda disheartening to see the entire map already taken up by realms. Alot of new players  like the idea of starting something themselves from scratch. I think the map needs to be bigger. when I joined, I hoped the dark blue area's were unexplored and more hidden land was there, but Ive been told thats not the case.
Maybe several instances of the same world would be cool. Players could decide if they want to play in a old, already established world, or join a complete new one.

Unfortunately the player demand isn't large enough to really support instances. So I'd rule that out.

The problem with the "map is full" argument is that much of the land is "slumbering". That is, it's owned by a country but the players who own that lands have stopped playing. In some cases, they stopped playing several months ago. I've outlined that I think those lands should be recycled back to "unknown" lands, so that new players can see some places that don't look "full". That would cater better to all players, I think, and also lead to border disputes, which adds conflict.

So the map doesn't need to be bigger, there just needs to be some of the "clutter" freed up to cater to expansionistic players.


stage 1 - normal "slumber"
  - This is the existing stage the game leaves slumber land in
  - this stage gives the slumbered player a chance to rejoin play

stage 2 - after a X weeks of slumber, settlement reverts to unowned, but retains kingdom
  - this stage gives the kingdom time to recruit new knights

stage 3 - nationality reverts to free land.
  - after a long time of ownerless land in a kingdom, the nation claim itself erodes.

For additional control, put an adjustable cap on how much "free" lands there should be, e.g. 30 settlements. Settlements then would only go from Stage 2 to Stage 3, based on time since slumber, to maintain a constant amount of "free" lands. Then the devs could tweak that cap to ensure there are always some free lands somewhere to fit new players in, as long as slumber is a thing.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 10:24:53 AM by Cipheron »

De-Legro

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2017, 12:10:34 PM »
As a new player, I think a smaller map would suck. It's kinda disheartening to see the entire map already taken up by realms. Alot of new players  like the idea of starting something themselves from scratch. I think the map needs to be bigger. when I joined, I hoped the dark blue area's were unexplored and more hidden land was there, but Ive been told thats not the case.
Maybe several instances of the same world would be cool. Players could decide if they want to play in a old, already established world, or join a complete new one.


There will never be "instances" of the map. The game is designed to be a persistent single world.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2017, 03:11:20 AM »
The issue is currently we just have huge nations taking land, letting it fall to slumber, then taking it again. Should a new player dare to so much as start a takeover of said land, they harass and kill off that character.

Cipheron

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2017, 07:06:25 AM »
Which is what my idea is about preventing.

Basically right now slumbering lands are in a type of permanent stasis. That's their end-state until someone interacts with the settlement. So those lands are effectively "lost" to the game economy as long as existing players can manipulate things such that nobody takes those over. And the lack of apparent space to settle is in fact turning away a significant proportion of new players. There is space for those players, but the game is failing to signal that to new players. Old players know the score, but they aren't the ones that the game should be marketing the opportunities to, new players need to have a range of starting choices clearly outline.

By making slumbered lands evolve through a couple of more stages then that becomes a game-changer. But that rate can be strongly controlled, e.g. claims degrade but realm/sumrealms remain for a while, and out of those a set amount of towns are shifted back to completely "free" towns, so as to maintain a constant amount of "new" lands for new players. So a simple mechanic ensures new players always see a range of choices: join a kingdom or make your own new settlement.

And it would give established kingdoms more tasks to carry out if their player base slumbers for too long: holes appear and you need to go sort that out, meaning a whole lot of opportunity for discussion and conflict.

~~~

Actually, one thing I was thinking of, mentioned it once, is that it should be easier to sign up to a nation who needs new knights to replace those who slumbered. e.g. perhaps some sort of automatic knight's offer generation system for realms in which slumber had gotten too far. Perhaps this would only kick in if existing players didn't have enough knight's offers up for grabs. e.g. if in some county, a vassal slumbered and eventually lost the settlement, then a system could be in placed to automatically create a knight's offer for the settlement(s) (maybe a max of three inheritable) that vassal vacated.

Another thing that would be nice is that if you are a landless lordless knight and you are in a slumbered or vacant town owned by a realm, you should be able to claim that land, but also say that it stays as the current realm. Perhaps have it automatically swear you as a vassal to the ruler. That would make it much easier for new players still working out the ropes to join an existing kingdom. It's not really "breaking" anything, it just prevents them having to "hunt down random realm member", and would give them vassalage of someone who actually matters rather than "first person I can find".

But i think the above if do-able would open up a game issue: what to do if there is no ruler or there's still an election on. This suggests vassalage itself might need an overhaul. For example, if I'm the vassal of a King and then i die and my lands in the kingdom go to my heir, those lands should in fact still be subject to vassalage of the king. And what if the king dies and a new king comes? Now I'm not a vassal any more and those lands are effectively mine without any vassalage relationship with the king. it seems broken. Possibly, you should be able to be multiple people's vassal at the same time, but relating to different land claims, and vassalage from both sides of the equation should be inheritable.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 07:52:15 AM by Cipheron »

De-Legro

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2017, 11:25:50 AM »
The issue is currently we just have huge nations taking land, letting it fall to slumber, then taking it again. Should a new player dare to so much as start a takeover of said land, they harass and kill off that character.


Unless you know they do like the guys in the south did, and find a sugar daddy to protect them while they establish a new realm. Anyone that thinks you can just rock up to any old settlement and start taking it over is probably not going to like how things turn out. Spend some time doing some ground work though and things can be very different.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2017, 10:21:17 PM »

Unless you know they do like the guys in the south did, and find a sugar daddy to protect them while they establish a new realm. Anyone that thinks you can just rock up to any old settlement and start taking it over is probably not going to like how things turn out. Spend some time doing some ground work though and things can be very different.

De-Legro, the issue is that I'm not a new player, I already know all of this. But HOW is a new player supposed to know that? Furthermore, it's criminally negligent to the health of this game to leave a huge number of settlements under the current perpetual system of neglect, with no way for new players to take them up, especially with no one providing any knight offers. Plus the fact that you can't swear fealty to someone unless you can enter their settlement if they are in one (which they always are), which is a stupid thing, means you can't become vassals of the people who could possibly protect you, even if you don't want to form a realm.

Moderator note: Post moderated for profanity.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 11:31:15 PM by Foxglove »

De-Legro

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2017, 11:11:25 PM »
De-Legro, the issue is that I'm not a new player, I already know all of this. But HOW THE FUCK is a new player supposed to know that? Furthermore, it's criminally negligent to the health of this game to leave a huge number of settlements under the current perpetual system of neglect, with no way for new players to take them up, especially with no one providing any knight offers. Plus the fact that you can't swear fealty to someone unless you can enter their settlement if they are in one (which they always are), which is a stupid thing, means you can't become vassals of the people who could possibly protect you, even if you don't want to form a realm.

Yet all those guys in the south, were brand new players that just used there brain for 5 seconds.  We bill the game as

Quote
Might & Fealty is an entirely player-driven, persistent world where history is being made, not just replayed

A roleplaying game, a strategy game, a political and negotiations game.
A simulation of a medieval / low-fantasy world not in the sense of realistic physics, but in the sense of having humans with human motivations and personal ambitions as the driving forces.
If you have figured out that slumbering settlements are targets, you should have figured out that if it has a realm still attached, you probably want to engage in some of that negotiations part.
As for having to enter a settlement to swear Loyality, sorry to burst your bubble but that is going to get harder anyway. Fealty will require acceptance in the near future. Honestly if you have not talked enough to someone to get permission to enter their city, or for them to leave it and meet you, then the chances they are actually going to protect you are next to nil.
Something on my todo list is to complement Tom's New Player Guide emails with some actual in game instructions when you are first creating a character. Hopefully here we can really hammer home some of the concepts of RP and real fealty.

Beyond that I have agreed with Cipheron for a long time that slumbering settlements need to get recycled somehow. Part of that I think is suspending or reducing trade out of them and eventually having them declare Independence on their own. A second part I think is to have them be subjected to whatever system we eventually settle on for reducing land when player numbers/activity appears to be too low for the amount of land currently in the system.
But if you think hard about it, you will realise that NOTHING mechanics wise is going to protect new players trying to carve out a realm from larger realms that want to, for whatever reason, block their efforts. Doesn't really matter if the land in question is slumbering or independent, land the realm once held, or just land that someone had their eye on but never got around to securing.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:57:29 AM by De-Legro »
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Cipheron

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 09:12:01 AM »
But it's that exact attitude that's killing off a lot of new player interest.

You can't just "use your brain for 5 seconds" because it doesn't work like that. Most of the problems are issues such as knowing the exact systems for obtaining what you need, and most new players can't actually contact anyone in the game to ask how to do things because of the message system, so they're stuck wandering around trying things by trial and error. I'm only still here because I came from a forum where they recruited people, so I had a bunch of people to ask for advice from.

And most of the ways to get what you want involve convulute gamey procedures that you just have to work out yourself - basically exploiting loopholes to get anywhere. That's not stuff you can "logic", it's game-specific meta-knowledge. And how to get that knowledge isn't clear cut, basically if you don't already know what your options are you'd spend weeks wandering uselessly trying to get things to work. e.g. if you can't access a settlement,  then the correct procedure is to contact the settlement owner and ask them to set permissions for you. But a new player who's never controlled a settlement doesn't have much way of knowing that the permissions system is even a thing. All they know is that they *were* inside the settlement they spawned in and after leaving it, can only enter certain settlements. The reasons that's true wouldn't be apparent, nor would the solution that the settlement owner can make a special personalized key for you.

My first experience before that was completely unfriendly, it involved a knights offer, and me trying to work out the controls, e.g. moving around. But then the lord who I was a vassal to decided me moving around was a sign of disloyalty and removed all the troops. So literally I started the way you're saying I'm supposed to, and literally the only action that it was physically possible for me TO take - movement, which is vital if I'm to learn the ropes, I basically got told to fuck off for doing that very thing. So yeah no. I decided to quit straight off. And don't frikking list "but you could have done A or B or C" because none of the systems you are talking about are apparent to a starting out player. Basically I had no way to get my foot in the door and the only resource that I did have, a few troops was taken away from me, I couldn't enter any towns and there were no available settlements anywhere nearby. So I just said "screw this" and quit. I imagine this in the normal experience for 80% of new players who don't have an external support network.

~~~

And you talk about new players not just "taking" settlements that aren't theirs. Sorry but that's downright privileged hostile idiocy that kills a game. A slumbering settlement isn't used by anyone. Existing large nations claiming "all this is ours" effectively prevents the game from having space for new players. You are part of the problem. By your logic new players should wander the map for real life weeks before getting their first settlement by gracious being giving the droppings from the High Table of the old players. How can they learn the game without a settlement? And if they don't learn how the game works, they won't stick around. That's the problem. To get anywhere they need to learn the game mechanics, and by your logic of them not being allowed to do anything until someone lets them, they will never learn that.

~~~

Also, you say that if you come across a slumbering settlement and you're a new player, you shouldn't claim it, you should go find the person who's in charge, and negotiate with them over it.
Goddamn good luck with that:-

- you can't actually ask anyone at the slumbering settlement, sinch you can only contact the local lord, who is slumbering
- so you then manually move your character over to a settlement with a non-slumbering character in the same kingdom, send a message
- then you have to await a reply
- then you have to hope they were the right person to talk to
- they will probably put you on to the higher ups, another conversation
- then get over to the city of the person you want to swear fealty to
- then hope that they set permissions for you to enter. If not, another round of messages
- now, you've sworn fealty, it's back to the settlement you wanted in the first place

And that's the optimal outcome, already knowing how all the systems such as settlement permissions work. A fresh new player can't be expected to know that specific series of step you'd need to be authorized to take a slumbering settlement.

Maybe streamlining this process would *actually help*. Since you can in fact randomly swear fealty to the slumbering person then just take the settlement and it would go under the radar 99% of the time. Bat that in itself involves you semi-randomly wandering to find the town the slumbering person is in. So the hard way is the "proper" way, and the easier way is the "gamey" way. But both involve several real-world days worth of boring bullshit just to get to the point where you've got access to the settlement interface and can start learning the ropes.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 01:59:48 PM by Foxglove »

Velrun

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 11:10:07 AM »
But it's that exact attitude that's killing off a lot of new player interest.

You can't just "use your brain for 5 seconds" because it doesn't work like that. Most of the problems are issues such as knowing the exact systems for obtaining what you need, and most new players can't actually contact anyone in the game to ask how to do things because of the message system, so they're stuck wandering around trying things by trial and error. I'm only still here because I came from a forum where they recruited people, so I had a bunch of people to ask for advice from.

And most of the ways to get what you want involve convulute gamey bullshit procedures that you just have to work out yourself - basically exploiting loopholes to get anywhere. That's not stuff you can "logic", it's game-specific meta-knowledge. And how to get that knowledge isn't clear cut, basically if you don't already know what your options are you'd spend weeks wandering uselessly trying to get things to work. e.g. if you can't access a settlement,  then the correct procedure is to contact the settlement owner and ask them to set permissions for you. But a new player who's never controlled a settlement doesn't have much way of knowing that the permissions system is even a thing. All they know is that they *were* inside the settlement they spawned in and after leaving it, can only enter certain settlements. The reasons that's true wouldn't be apparent, nor would the solution that the settlement owner can make a special personalized key for you.

My first experience before that was completely unfriendly, it involved a knights offer, and me trying to work out the controls, e.g. moving around. But then the lord who I was a vassal to decided me moving around was a sign of disloyalty and removed all the troops. So literally I started the way you're saying I'm supposed to, and literally the only action that it was physically possible for me TO take - movement, which is vital if I'm to learn the ropes, I basically got told to fuck off for doing that very thing. So yeah no. I decided to quit straight off. And don't frikking list "but you could have done A or B or C" because none of the systems you are talking about are apparent to a starting out player. Basically I had no way to get my foot in the door and the only resource that I did have, a few troops was taken away from me, I couldn't enter any towns and there were no available settlements anywhere nearby. So I just said "screw this" and quit. I imagine this in the normal experience for 80% of new players who don't have an external support network.

~~~

And you talk about new players not just "taking" settlements that aren't theirs. Sorry but that's downright privileged hostile idiocy that kills a game. A slumbering settlement isn't used by anyone. Existing large nations claiming "all this is ours" effectively prevents the game from having space for new players. You are part of the problem. By your logic new players should wander the map for real life weeks before getting their first settlement by gracious being giving the droppings from the High Table of the old players. How can they learn the game without a settlement? And if they don't learn how the game works, they won't stick around. That's the problem. To get anywhere they need to learn the game mechanics, and by your logic of them not being allowed to do anything until someone lets them, they will never learn that.

~~~

Also, you say that if you come across a slumbering settlement and you're a new player, you shouldn't claim it, you should go find the person who's in charge, and negotiate with them over it.
Goddamn good luck with that:-

- you can't actually ask anyone at the slumbering settlement, sinch you can only contact the local lord, who is slumbering
- so you then manually move your character over to a settlement with a non-slumbering character in the same kingdom, send a message
- then you have to await a reply
- then you have to hope they were the right person to talk to
- they will probably put you on to the higher ups, another conversation
- then get over to the city of the person you want to swear fealty to
- then hope that they set permissions for you to enter. If not, another round of messages
- now, you've sworn fealty, it's back to the settlement you wanted in the first place

And that's the optimal outcome, already knowing how all the systems such as settlement permissions work. A fresh new player can't be expected to know that specific series of step you'd need to be authorized to take a slumbering settlement.

Maybe streamlining this process would *actually help*. Since you can in fact randomly swear fealty to the slumbering person then just take the settlement and it would go under the radar 99% of the time. Bat that in itself involves you semi-randomly wandering to find the town the slumbering person is in. So the hard way is the "proper" way, and the easier way is the "gamey" way. But both involve several real-world days worth of boring bullshit just to get to the point where you've got access to the settlement interface and can start learning the ropes.


Can't ask, there is a prominent link to these forums on nearly every page in the game. If you can't get answers in game, then you can here. In the internet age such a avenue is pretty much second nature.


If a player is wandering around looking for land, of course they are going to bounce off the game. The aim should not be, how fast do new players get to carve out their own little empire, the goal we need to aim for is how fast do we get them involved in the game community. Fun doesn't come from sitting on your own little spot of 5, 10 or even 100 settlements, the fun is from interaction with other players. Now that Tom has taken a back seat in development, maybe we can finally have the real time OOC chat that would go some way to ensuring the best chance that there is someone somewhere to help you.


As for large empires constantly taking and reslumbering lands. In my experiance that has been because they recycling them in their own efforts to attract new players. Since the knight game is widely regarded as lacking, if realms don't have free land to quickly parcel off when knight offers are accepted, exactly what are they supposed to do in an attempt to retain the player?

Foxglove

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 02:07:48 PM »
It's good to see a pick up in activity on the forum. But I just want to remind people to watch their language. I've had to make a few edits in the past 24 hours to remove profanity. This isn't because we're running a softly-softly nanny state here, but because the forum is one of our higher profile 'shop windows' to new players and the outside world in general, and we want to project a good (but fair) image of the game's community.

Although we could argue that everyone here is an adult and well able to handle a bit of bad language, it does effect the tone of the Might and Fealty community that's projected into the public arena. If everyone is an adult, everyone should really be able to make strong points in discussion without the need for swearing.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:16:54 PM by Foxglove »
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Cipheron

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Re: Bringing In Players
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 04:32:05 PM »

As for large empires constantly taking and reslumbering lands. In my experiance that has been because they recycling them in their own efforts to attract new players. Since the knight game is widely regarded as lacking, if realms don't have free land to quickly parcel off when knight offers are accepted, exactly what are they supposed to do in an attempt to retain the player?

Which as you note is exactly what my idea was about improving.

My other idea was about improving the ways that a player who started a lordless knight can join a kingdom. The whole point was about how idiotic the current series of steps you'd have to go through to do that "properly" actually is. Being able to sign up as a vassal from any settlement, or as part of the settlement takeover procedure (have a maintain realm option that makes you a vassal of the relevant ruler) would give new players are more obvious way to join a kingdom.

If you combine that with the other idea about deactiviating slumbering towns to no-lord but still in a kingdom, then new players could see which towns are available from the main map easily by color, and they could get a message before they start playing that they can choose to become a member of a kingdom by taking over one unowned settlement.

The thing is, it's not at all obvious from the character placement menu that slumbering settlements are actually avaliable, and what sort of idiotic game design has it that the new player should go on the FORUM before the first time they log into the game to be sure they didn't screw themselves over? A bad design, that's what.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 04:55:10 PM by Cipheron »