Author Topic: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest  (Read 292 times)

Gris

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Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« on: November 11, 2018, 09:24:12 AM »
Recently I have returned to the game since quite a while settling at The Exiles, where I've had a chance to witness firsthand part of events taking place. Their main landowning player retired his characters believing his land would go to remaining Exiles (he even confirmed that later on), but he (assuming here) didn't set his heirs correctly and towns went blue, with all the militia available to the takers.

That very moment the players behind Ascalon and Thule (there's a paradox of the same group of players running both realms?!, won't even be going into that because it deserves a thread of its owns) went meticulously from one blue dot to another, completely abusing the situation taking towns and converting militia to their realm >:( . Since this group plays like tons of characters and are extremely active, the Exiles were able to reclaim only a small portion of their realm, while everything else went to Ascalon and Thule. Towns had aprox 100 militia each, so we are talking about few thousands of troops here. Blue dots kept their alignment to Exiles, they weren't free to take, mind you. And that's a realm that wasn't in war against Ascalon nor Thule. I mean, guys, where is your player's integrity, or basic decency :'( . You are playing with and against other people who run those characters. Now I can imagine how you would pull this stunt if those blues were Hawks or any other major realm, but no, you pulled it on a fledgling ream that lost its main player - it does speak miles of you as players behind Ascalon and Thule :-[ . If it were a small realm building up I would understand, but for something like this to come from a juggernaut like Ascalon... I am completely and totally disappointed. If it isn't the very definition of a mindless landgrab, then I don't know what is, and it definitely deserves a rage at the very least.
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Cipheron

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2018, 10:39:09 AM »
A similar thing happened with Lowlands.


Ascalon recently declared war and carved a chunk of land out of the deLacy family, who have been playing a long, long time and are pretty quiet folk who have never gotten involved in any of the various wars to my knowledge. I can see knights from Tor Kortaur as having provoked Ascalon, but it's kinda crap to invade the peaceful and quiet Tor Dun in the process of some border-skirmish against Tor Kortaur knights. The problem is that taking out people who've had steady holdings for a long time just means that they won't bother logging in once they've lost them, and the Lowlanders do not have an equal chance of retaking those towns, so there's very little "game" about that: it's just a one-sided steamroller which drives people to quitting the game.

 This is not so much Ascalon's fault as it's a problem with how the game works. Consolidation into a small number of ever-bigger nations is killing the game.

Personally, I think that the devs should implement a hard-cap on the number of towns per character and/or per account, even for paying accounts. There's really no value in the idea that one person can have 100 settlements. That just turns the towns into an undifferentiated mass of feeder-towns and crowds smaller players out of the game. If there were strict limits then you can bet the opportunities for starting players would increase and the number of knight's offers would increase. Being able to take over unlimited additional towns yourself means there's next to no relative value in having vassal knights, and adds to the "sprawl" problem of large empires.

Sure, some people might quit because they can't have 50+ towns. But you know what? That's probably a good thing since they'll be replaced by a larger number of people content with a smaller number of towns each, adding more life to every nation and the the entire game.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 11:21:09 AM by Cipheron »

Gris

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 07:49:44 AM »
Well sorry to hear Lowlands in such a mess, but think it has more to do with that very inactivity, along with some bad politics. What happened in Exiles is nowhere comparable to that.


With other points of yours I mostly agree, although it's a story of it's own.
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De-Legro

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2018, 12:19:37 AM »
A similar thing happened with Lowlands.


Ascalon recently declared war and carved a chunk of land out of the deLacy family, who have been playing a long, long time and are pretty quiet folk who have never gotten involved in any of the various wars to my knowledge. I can see knights from Tor Kortaur as having provoked Ascalon, but it's kinda crap to invade the peaceful and quiet Tor Dun in the process of some border-skirmish against Tor Kortaur knights. The problem is that taking out people who've had steady holdings for a long time just means that they won't bother logging in once they've lost them, and the Lowlanders do not have an equal chance of retaking those towns, so there's very little "game" about that: it's just a one-sided steamroller which drives people to quitting the game.

 This is not so much Ascalon's fault as it's a problem with how the game works. Consolidation into a small number of ever-bigger nations is killing the game.

Personally, I think that the devs should implement a hard-cap on the number of towns per character and/or per account, even for paying accounts. There's really no value in the idea that one person can have 100 settlements. That just turns the towns into an undifferentiated mass of feeder-towns and crowds smaller players out of the game. If there were strict limits then you can bet the opportunities for starting players would increase and the number of knight's offers would increase. Being able to take over unlimited additional towns yourself means there's next to no relative value in having vassal knights, and adds to the "sprawl" problem of large empires.

Sure, some people might quit because they can't have 50+ towns. But you know what? That's probably a good thing since they'll be replaced by a larger number of people content with a smaller number of towns each, adding more life to every nation and the the entire game.

Not sure I support hardcaps, but the softcaps obviously don't work and need revising. We also need to ban multi paid accounts and be more vigilant in tracking free account abuse. I still think we should drop paid accounts and have a single tier account.

As for specifics Exiles contacted and hired help from Hawks. Hawks has no contact with Low Lands but given we are in an imposed truce with Ascalon and are already engaged in a mercanary contract we would be unlikely to be interested in helping anyway.
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silvershot

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 07:11:59 PM »
Well sorry to hear Lowlands in such a mess, but think it has more to do with that very inactivity, along with some bad politics. What happened in Exiles is nowhere comparable to that.


With other points of yours I mostly agree, although it's a story of it's own.


No, what happened in Exiles is a bunch of bullcrap for other reasons you fail to realize. You're blaming Ascalon and Thule without accounting for WHY there's issues in the first place. It's not just them.

Exiles separated from Karameikos. Karameikos decided, at that time, that under Van Valen they'd let it slide.

Van Valen leaves. Now they want their land back.

You know, I was in a rebellion once. We lost. I didn't whine and cry and moan about that.

The Vintroth

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 08:07:30 PM »
I suppose a welcome back is in order. I am one of those horrible, despicable and greedy players you speak of.

Do I play in both Ascalon and Thule? Yea, sure I do but you might be surprised to hear that I can actually play my characters. Prime example, I play (as my name here suggests) the Duke of Falconreach. He doesn't really care what the Exiles and Thule are up to. Still, other nobles wishes to see a nice border hence the Ascalonians that came up there to sit and say "lets fix the border". - They haven't attacked anyone to my knowledge nor do they aim to do so. A simple situation to be resolved by words is expected, no need to use force. Not in any way related to Thule. In fact, the only reason I became involved on Lyonell was that Strenvale wanted to mediate on behalf of the Exiles and also brought Lyonell in as help to do so.

On the other hand, Thule. They fought a small conflict with the Van Valens a few years back, following a few disagreements. Thule won the conflict in the end, after some early reversals. The peace was basically no changes for either side, though we never did bother to take back the one or two provinces that Valen took from us... because unlike what you believe, I am not greedy at all (nor Östfold or the rest of Thule for that matter). It isn't the land that is interesting, it is the fact that it is Rathgari land. Van Valen was respected and well liked by all Alfborgs, as a friend and foe. The Alfborgs were always happy to have him there, scar or no scar. With him gone however it is again not his land that is of interest to me but the fact that it is Rathgari. This is unrelated to Ascalon.

In the end, I do own plenty of land. I don't want more land if that is what you believe. In fact, as anyone that speaks to me would know, I fucking hate when I have to take over land nowadays because it doesn't serve me any good what so ever really. It just adds to my corruption across all characters, no matter if they're the Duke of Falconreach, a lowly knight or that Rathgari from Thule. However, I have to play my characters. Thule wishes to see Rathgari people in Rathgar as Dyre pointed out.

I don't know who you play so I don't know what information you have or where you've gotten it from but your perspective seems twisted to an extreme degree. I don't know if it is you who has put random OOC rumours on random characters across Thule that really do not deserve them or if it was someone else, following along the same lines. But frankly, I suppose it doesn't matter. Either you will listen to this and see that it really isn't as black and white or as bad as you seem to believe. Or don't listen to this and simply believe what you wish.



De-Legro

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 09:40:27 PM »
Ascalon currently occupied one of the Capital settlements of the Exiles, perhaps the largest settlement they had. How is that not "use of force"? Not that I am complaining, Hawks takes a similar diplomatic approach often. People listen really well once they want something back.
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Gris

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 01:22:26 AM »

No, what happened in Exiles is a bunch of bullcrap for other reasons you fail to realize. You're blaming Ascalon and Thule without accounting for WHY there's issues in the first place. It's not just them.

Exiles separated from Karameikos. Karameikos decided, at that time, that under Van Valen they'd let it slide.

Van Valen leaves. Now they want their land back.

You know, I was in a rebellion once. We lost. I didn't whine and cry and moan about that.


Hmm quite some stir after a long silence...


Since there is no accounting, I will go with the common sense, and common sense tells me there will never be war between Ascalon and Thule, or even enmity, so maybe they work hand in hand hm? For your record, the old North would never pass on a chance to war Ascalon, that much for role play.


So, Van Valen seceded with his lands and formed Exiles, and you did nothing. Then, when he retired, wishing to leave his lands to the Exiles, you concluded that now you want those lands that were never yours, but Van Valens? There is a super thin backing to this story, if there is any at all, doesn't look IC at all.


Rebellion... in order to rebel, one actually needs to be a part of a motherland. Exiles are a realm of their own, so maybe you got mixed up a bit here  ::)  If you made a conquest by blood and fire, I wouldn't say a word, but you simply walked into deserted towns, reverted thousands of militia (that Exiles trained under Van Valen) and then you started dictating terms. There isn't much of gaming there at all, so it is in order for community to become aware of the kind of players behind certain characters. And I'm not moaning, I put it under the rage yone, not under 'Admin pls help me zone'.


I don't have time now, but I will answer other posts as well, there is a lot of bull there for sure.
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De-Legro

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 01:57:40 AM »
Their position is quite fine IC. Van Valen is a Rathgar family, a founding family. They may well have had a deal or expectations that the Exiles were fine so long as Van Valen or another Rathgar bloodline rules. Likewise the counter argument you have presented is also fine. The fun thing about claims IC is that perspective is important.

It doesn't help that the new ruler is named Robin Hood. I almost rejected their request for a mercenary contract on that alone.
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The Vintroth

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 02:24:16 PM »


Hmm quite some stir after a long silence...


Since there is no accounting, I will go with the common sense, and common sense tells me there will never be war between Ascalon and Thule, or even enmity, so maybe they work hand in hand hm? For your record, the old North would never pass on a chance to war Ascalon, that much for role play.


So, Van Valen seceded with his lands and formed Exiles, and you did nothing. Then, when he retired, wishing to leave his lands to the Exiles, you concluded that now you want those lands that were never yours, but Van Valens? There is a super thin backing to this story, if there is any at all, doesn't look IC at all.


Rebellion... in order to rebel, one actually needs to be a part of a motherland. Exiles are a realm of their own, so maybe you got mixed up a bit here  ::)  If you made a conquest by blood and fire, I wouldn't say a word, but you simply walked into deserted towns, reverted thousands of militia (that Exiles trained under Van Valen) and then you started dictating terms. There isn't much of gaming there at all, so it is in order for community to become aware of the kind of players behind certain characters. And I'm not moaning, I put it under the rage yone, not under 'Admin pls help me zone'.


I don't have time now, but I will answer other posts as well, there is a lot of bull there for sure.
Silvershot/Kirfkin who you quoted is not a part of Thule by the way. As for a big stir, I only realised you'd made this post yesterday as it no longer shows new posts on the discord (which you could join for easier OOC conversations).

I've already told you that I can play my characters and of course conflict between them is possible. No matter what realm they're in. I know there were plenty of wars with Rathgari and Ascalon before I joined the game. Roran told me of them when he brought me in. However, Karameikos is slightly different from the Rathgar of old as you might have realised and Karameikos has since the time I started playing M&F been friendly with Ascalon. Hell, a brother (or nephew or some such) of Karameikos royalty is even a part of Falconreach. Admittedly, changes are taking place now as that player also quit the game recently. I believe we both agree that war needs reasons and for as long I've played it isn't Ascalon and Karameikos that have been at each others throat, but Eldamar and Karameikos (despite the fact that they're allied). The reasons behind those conflicts are many though and I shan't go into detail... quite interesting though from beginning to end.

As for the fact they're not fighting as an argument for that they're working hand in hand. Nonsense argument. Take that argument to the full extent and everyone who are not fighting are working together which obviously isn't true for any realm, in any place.

 Already told you why no one, Mormont or Alfborg really cared if Van Valen left. He was Van Valen. His family name held more importance than the land he owned, far more so. However, as I also explained to you, Van Valen is now gone but his land is still Rathgari. - Rathgari land in my Alfborg's mind (I don't play all the Alfborgs), should only ever belong to Rathgari and there was only one way to make that happen. But all that have been explained at length in IC messages, so I don't understand how you can't see it. It seems that you have decided there is no backing and no matter how much I (or anyone else) explain it, IC or OOC you won't accept it.

On the same note, yes. The part of the Exiles that is of concern to Thule used to be a part of Karameikos under different Van Valen family members. The other part was ruled by Haugbui before he died which was not a part of Karameikos. This you should already know if you've been paying attention to anything that has been said or going on the recent years. You're simply making assumption after assumption. Thousands of men? Hardly.

Again, you assume much but seem to know very little in fact. Including history or the characters of the people you make assumptions about. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why you, whoever you play, might be annoyed or even angry. However, I am actually quite happy to speak to you and hear you out and explain the things that you don't know. However, simply writing of what I tell you as some thin excuse (for greed? for being oocly based? for what?) is neither reasonable or fair.




Gris

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 11:52:12 PM »
[snippity]


This might be the rage zone, but still no personal insult please and thank you. It is best in general not to make assumptions or claims about other peoples OOC motivation. Rage that a larger realm is toying with you. Rage that they took your capital and now attempt strong arm diplomacy whatever, but try and keep the rage about actual in game actions.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:07:57 AM by De-Legro »
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Gris

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 12:38:49 AM »



De Legro, how can I debate if you edit/delete my posts? I simply wrote what he wrote for himself, hardly classifies as an insult. A lot of truth in that post too, would be good for community to know about.


Anyway, I'm letting it go, it is fruitless to debate in this manner any further, and I don't prefer my rage being 'guided', thank you.
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De-Legro

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 01:15:31 AM »
A large part of the community has frequent interactions with Ascalon, and seem to get along quiet happily with the leadership there both IC and OOC. In general I let the first post of a rage topic go to the keeper, since it is a rage area and people are often quite angry when they post here. But continuing to post unfounded and unprovable claims about other people OOC motivations serves no purpose.



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Dystopian

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 09:03:50 PM »
Yeah. I don't play in Ascalon for the history or RP, all I play for is the gameplay mechanics.

De-Legro

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Re: Players behind Ascalon - greed at its finest
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2018, 01:16:31 AM »
We could all take this as a lesson on how perspectives lead to drastically differing opinions. The view of the actions of a realm from the outside of it will always be in contrast to the view within. The more successful the realm (by whatever metric you want to go by), the more divergent those views can be. It is in no way uncommon for the "greed" argument to be thrown around whenever a large group (realm in this games place) goes for of whatever the game in particular offers. Several players have made great attempts to offer the Ascalon/Thule standpoint. Given that this is a rage zone the likely-hood of that yield fruit is pretty low.
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