Considering Leaving

[Foxglove]

Instead of a destroy the world in war, try rescuing a captive from a noble or try capturing an artifact from a realm.  Talk to the realm first and make sure they understand the limits of the war so that no boarders change hands, just a great RP war not about land or food or wealth but about fun things.

You would not play DnD to rule the world, you would play it to finish a cool quest.  Do that.

Good post. The comparison to D&D is a significant one. A good D&D Dungeon Master knows that his/her job is to create an adventure that challenges and entertains the players. Not to spawn a massive horde that will kill them all off. The entertainment is in crafting a fun journey for everyone.

As much as anything, M&F is a tool-set for people to craft their own entertainment. There are many ways to do that. It doesn't have to be about all-or-nothing wars that kill off and demoralise the opposition. It can be about small scale battle and other adventures. For example, invent an artifact and fight over it in ways that don't mean you have to take land and destroy the other realm. Create entertainment for everyone, and not just yourself. If you see that someone else is less active than you and struggling to compete, rather than thinking, "great, I can beat them easily", instead try to create a situation where they can have a decent chance to have fun as much as you.

For most people, even those completely dedicated to having the biggest, baddest armies, straight out conquest will eventually become boring. And it'll likely become boring for those on the other side even sooner. There's a lot more interest and fun to be had in crafting more imaginative adventures and objectives.

Truly, M&F can be approached as a sandbox tool kit to create fun things. The fact that we've often failed to do that is at least in part a failure for us as players as much as it is the mechanics of the game. Sure, the game could help us out a bit more than it does. But, even in its present form, we could make a shift in playing styles that make the game something different to pushing armies around a board. Maybe there's a key to rescuing the game in that.

[Gris]

The game is a niche game, there are too few players to use what game offers with effect, making it look not so good being a multiplayer game. But it's basically free, so no reason not to enjoy it, unless text-based games aren't your cup of tea. There is an issue of high immersion, running too many things all at once, and that of mechanics, which may seem complicated if you don't know the ropes (there are also bugs and stuff here that will hopefully get ironed out along the way). I see no flaws elsewhere, M&F is a slow game and painfully realistic one, to do anything you need to march your characters there, you build armies for rl months and your characters easily lose them in a 1-day battle, just like in realty. High activity is not required, you do need be active for battles yes, but you can also park your characters in cities and go on a 10 day trip never looking back until you have time to play again. Levels of activity required are a joke compared to the most mmo games out there. Yes, I agree this can become an issue if you run three realms, all waging war, and generally you shouldn't be doing this, running one realm is more than enough for a casual gamer. Game being slow, you can play for a very long rl time, it's designed for eternity so to say, but inevitably you will get bored; that is time to let your realm go to hell, and start something different, from scratch. Or quit the game. I don't think either of you are at this point.

[Velrun]

The game is a niche game, there are too few players to use what game offers with effect, making it look not so good being a multiplayer game. But it's basically free, so no reason not to enjoy it, unless text-based games aren't your cup of tea. There is an issue of high immersion, running too many things all at once, and that of mechanics, which may seem complicated if you don't know the ropes (there are also bugs and stuff here that will hopefully get ironed out along the way). I see no flaws elsewhere, M&F is a slow game and painfully realistic one, to do anything you need to march your characters there, you build armies for rl months and your characters easily lose them in a 1-day battle, just like in realty. High activity is not required, you do need be active for battles yes, but you can also park your characters in cities and go on a 10 day trip never looking back until you have time to play again. Levels of activity required are a joke compared to the most mmo games out there. Yes, I agree this can become an issue if you run three realms, all waging war, and generally you shouldn't be doing this, running one realm is more than enough for a casual gamer. Game being slow, you can play for a very long rl time, it's designed for eternity so to say, but inevitably you will get bored; that is time to let your realm go to hell, and start something different, from scratch. Or quit the game. I don't think either of you are at this point.

Just so everyone can see it.

[nanakisan]

My time on M&F is slowly drawing to a close as well. Mainly due to my increasingly high lack of interest. When I started with Turant, Nanaki and Xerxsephnia originally. I had intended goals for each character. Nanaki would serve as the loyal lap dog that seeks only adventure. Turant is the grumpy older brother that will run anyone through who threatens him or his friends. Xerxsephnia was originally intended to be just a priestess of a metal rich mountainstead. Instead however she ended up becoming queen of Ariamis by election and eventually a joint ruler of Lucernia. Now I am stuck on trying to find a way out that won't cause an issue. I may just give The Iron Mountains to someone in Grand Fate then have the priestess commit suicide or something. Turant is an easier case as I can just say the passing of his brother finally drove him over the brink of insanity. He's already known for being drunk 90% of the time these days. xD but my issue with the game so far is simply not having anything to do.

[Insanegame27]

My time on M&F is slowly drawing to a close as well. Mainly due to my increasingly high lack of interest. When I started with Turant, Nanaki and Xerxsephnia originally. I had intended goals for each character. Nanaki would serve as the loyal lap dog that seeks only adventure. Turant is the grumpy older brother that will run anyone through who threatens him or his friends. Xerxsephnia was originally intended to be just a priestess of a metal rich mountainstead. Instead however she ended up becoming queen of Ariamis by election and eventually a joint ruler of Lucernia. Now I am stuck on trying to find a way out that won't cause an issue. I may just give The Iron Mountains to someone in Grand Fate then have the priestess commit suicide or something. Turant is an easier case as I can just say the passing of his brother finally drove him over the brink of insanity. He's already known for being drunk 90% of the time these days. xD but my issue with the game so far is simply not having anything to do.

Can I just say that having nothing to do should not equate to leaving? If you're bored, consider making another character and helping a developing realm... develop. Or something. Make new, fresh goals. Start anew.

[WVH]

Nothing to do?  Do something.  The entire world is your sandbox.  Go do something.  Board?  Write a story on the wiki.  If you have nothing to do, it is a lack of your imagination, not a game issue.  This is not everquest or WoW...the game does not tell you what you have to do.

[Ratharing]

I urge you reconsider, Ratharing, from what I know of you, you are a very responsible Ruler, exactly the kind the game needs.

See my post on the other thread, where I mention that we need more players. Without that, the density of IC is just too low, which affects RP. I get the feeling that for some reason, right now, a lot of Realms are becoming more RP centric, with lots of events happening all over.

I thank you for your words, but I disagree on how the game mechanics work, have suggested changes, and see that they do not match Tom's vision of the game. Thus, we respectfully part ways.

Here is a question for those who are not finding the game enjoyable.

Is it the game... or is it the way you want to play.

I honestly mean no offense and have been guilty of the "i want to win always" attitude.  But if you stop trying to win and instead focus on interactions... the game changes perspective.

Instead of trying to have the best army, try having a unique army.  Instead of being honorable be dastardly.  Instead of trying to win a war, try to pit two enemies against each other.

That is where the fun was in battlemaster and that is where the fun COULD be here.  But it takes the top players having a change of attitude.

I know I know, I am sure the majority of top players would say they DO these things... um except they dont or they only do it until war starts then its squish them all!

Instead of a destroy the world in war, try rescuing a captive from a noble or try capturing an artifact from a realm.  Talk to the realm first and make sure they understand the limits of the war so that no boarders change hands, just a great RP war not about land or food or wealth but about fun things.

You would not play DnD to rule the world, you would play it to finish a cool quest.  Do that.

I very much enjoy tabletop RPGs and unbalanced parties. That is why I'm not a fan of D&D (in where everything is combat-oriented). You need a good game master for a campaign with unbalanced characters to provide satisfactory entertainment, and the game system may help or hinder those efforts. There is no GM in M&F, and its mechanics appear to me as hindering those efforts more than helping them.

If you want me to follow that analogy, it's as if we had a game session with a large amount of players each with several characters of different levels, some wanting a serious medieval atmosphere, others wanting it steampunk/high-fantasy, others low-level horror, others anarchic slapstick, others storytelling, others wanting swashbuckling dungeon-crawling, and so on. And that doesn't work because most people tend to get pissed off.

M&F does have a setting, but in its sandbox design it allows for several styles of play, some of which not compatible with the others. Now that I have a clearer picture of Tom's vision I notice it does not match mine. I feel like a storyteller in a dungeon-crawling setting killing NPCs for loot, back on the analogy.

There is also the unbalance not only of regions (which would be very good if the game was more RP-oriented, instead of PvP combat), but also of accounts. I can have 50 characters and unlimited land. Many great players can only have 4 and limited land.

This might be appealing to many people, but to me it's not. In the end it's just a matter of personal preference.

High activity is not required, you do need be active for battles yes, but you can also park your characters in cities and go on a 10 day trip never looking back until you have time to play again.

To be fair, if you went around with that attitude in the Civil War of the Imperium, border between Rathgar and the Lowlands, or the conflict between the Archonian Dominate, Hawks and Tetsuyama you'd either find you lost most or all your army to starvation or to enemies (or to a combination of both).

[nanakisan]

Can I just say that having nothing to do should not equate to leaving? If you're bored, consider making another character and helping a developing realm... develop. Or something. Make new, fresh goals. Start anew.

One tiny issue with the whole "starting anew" suggestion. There is no where left to start fresh from. My issue is mostly from lack of interest. I've actually tried to make an effort once at religion. I was one of the 3 founds for what was called The Path. Ascalon in some fashion still follows it. However it's a dying effort to maintain the RP aspects of it. Ariamis was actually going to be the holy grounds of which my religion would take root. But because Vladimir's player stopped playing the game. The realm simply went to shit. I actually personally thank the player of Orion Rhu for causing the war and such. Gave me something to do I will not lie.

Nothing to do?  Do something.  The entire world is your sandbox.  Go do something.  Board?  Write a story on the wiki.  If you have nothing to do, it is a lack of your imagination, not a game issue.  This is not everquest or WoW...the game does not tell you what you have to do.

That I know quite well. But my time is invested elsewhere. This game requires a form of dedication that most people don't have. Also long long ago my internal drive for story telling fell to pieces because of depression. Since the passing of my grandparents I've been incapable of anything imaginative. Trust me I have tried numerous times to rekindle my flame. It's why I simply gave up in BattleMasters as Nanaki Murasaki. Instead of wasting other peoples time on this game. I could very easily just set something up that helps a realm out. Then up and walk away without a care in the world. I'm not saying this because I lack imagination. I'm simply growing less interested in the game.

[WVH]

But why do you have to start something new?  Why not find something that was started a long time ago but never really took hold....so it is sort of hanging in the rafters... and run with it?

For example, religions.  Rathgar has been limping along with religion for a long time.  The orig. Gothi never really expanded on it.  We have a Goddess Oho, that I invented in year one or two... and we have the Bear God that formed out of role play in the very first days of the game.  Other than that, we know we have the Order of Gothi, but there really is nothing there.  Someone could step in, set up a few more Gods and Goddesses based on the culture and really make something cool using the foundation that is already provided.

Then there is Tor Sakkan... Rich Van Valen says he has found a way to raise the dead (the Dragur) using rites that bring a spark from the Gods.  His Gods are dark ones (that again have no name or anything) and he uses this power to create his dark knights.  It was recently discovered (through RP by Ethan Van Valen) that Gods of light can be used to make the same thing happen with vastly different results...aka Light knights (Lawful evil = dark, Lawful = light..to put it blunt).  None of this is fluffed out or set in stone, just an idea.  That idea being that a Yin Yang type of realm can be created in Tor Sakkan where these two lawful forces are under one banner.  They can fight among themselves but crusaded for things that are important such as defending EVERYONE's right to choose their Gods.

Sands of Oho.  There is a religion there that use to have temples in the Fading islands, Rathgar, and EI.  I never had time to really work it beyond how it interacted with my characters and vassals.

Three of these things I started by myself but never had the time to do anything with.  So they exist but just sit there.  Now if I made three of them, it makes me wonder how many other half finished ideas are out there.  Someone with a bit of time who is board could pick them up and run with them!

Point is that we do not have to always start something new.  We can use our energy to support other ideas that already exist.  We do not have to lead a realm to be active in it.

An example of this is the Artifact Bear's Axe which came out of the RP of the Bear God.  So I used my account to create the artifact and then gave it away to the character/player who would have it from the story.

We need more story centered actions supporting each other and less attempts at making something from scratch.  As was said, the world is full...as in no new places to start...soooo it is time to enter a new phase of world development.  One where we work together to create the story instead of trying to win something all the time.

Tell me what you want.  You want Tor Sakkan?  It is part of Rathgar and should stay there (because we are trying to build Rathgar into something better than just a name with no RP) but control of the realm is yours if you want it.  My character will stay and help because he is tied to the dark Gods but you can have the realm and story.

Want to help build the Rathgari pantheon? Come join the Order and I will help you with what ever back story information you need to move forward.

Want to build on the Goddess Oho, Goddess of passion and lust?  It is all right there to be worked on.  Not even anything on the wiki yet.  Just a general idea of drug induced orgies and priest/priestess duties to "cleans" others.

There is so much back story missing from the wiki too.  That is a great project for someone to take on.  There are tons of things to do that will enrich the game not just for you but for anyone who comes along.

[Arx]

See, my fundamental problem with all the 'oh, but you should try x!' arguments is that almost all of them boil down to x being 'fun, but also work'. That was okay when I was on holiday. I'm not on holiday any more. I've got less energy for 'fun, but also work', in part because most of what I do from eight to four every day is 'fun, but also work'. If I want that, I have an experimental physics project, I have a lot of maths-related stuff, and so on. Things which have the double-barrel of providing some IRL benefit as well.

And quite aside from that, it's still a thing that boredom is not in fact more than about half a point in my long list of woes.

[Dorian]

If you can skip over the fact that the game is highly unfinished and unpolished, you can try out other realms with more players. If you want to play in interesting realms while not you doing all the work you should try some of the established story driven realms. I would recommend Archonian Dominate or Ascalon. The first is on the verge of what looks like a first serious defeat and is boiling with changes (those are always fun!) while the second is recovering from a humiliating defeat as well, it has many large Duchies that seem to be on the path of reformation as well. Try it out, blend in. You need to play in realms that have many players to get the most out of the game.

[WVH]

See, my fundamental problem with all the 'oh, but you should try x!' arguments is that almost all of them boil down to x being 'fun, but also work'. That was okay when I was on holiday. I'm not on holiday any more. I've got less energy for 'fun, but also work', in part because most of what I do from eight to four every day is 'fun, but also work'. If I want that, I have an experimental physics project, I have a lot of maths-related stuff, and so on. Things which have the double-barrel of providing some IRL benefit as well.

And quite aside from that, it's still a thing that boredom is not in fact more than about half a point in my long list of woes.

Well, there is not much else to say then.  This is a personal problem for you, not the game.  We players have tried to give you ideas but as you say here, nothing will change YOUR situation.  So good game man, been fun. 

[Arx]

Well, there is not much else to say then.  This is a personal problem for you, not the game.

...so, did you actually read any of my reasons for losing interest?

[WVH]

...so, did you actually read any of my reasons for losing interest?

Sure did.  It was indicated that it all came down to you not having as much time to put into something you have to work hard at in order to have fun.

Cant fault you there...but no one can help with that problem.  You don't have time for the game in its current state, obviously it will not be interesting and fun.  That is your spot to be in and no one else can fix it.  The game is not going to change at the pace to keep you interested, all ideas put forward are not worth the effort, so... what else is there to talk about on the issue?

Hate to see you go, but you are the one saying you do not have time for the game as it is now.  We offered suggestions from playing under other people to trying new things, not much more can be done.

[Lann]

See, my fundamental problem with all the 'oh, but you should try x!' arguments is that almost all of them boil down to x being 'fun, but also work'. That was okay when I was on holiday. I'm not on holiday any more. I've got less energy for 'fun, but also work', in part because most of what I do from eight to four every day is 'fun, but also work'. If I want that, I have an experimental physics project, I have a lot of maths-related stuff, and so on. Things which have the double-barrel of providing some IRL benefit as well.

And quite aside from that, it's still a thing that boredom is not in fact more than about half a point in my long list of woes.

Well wait a minute.  A lot of what  WVH suggested could be handled at a slower pace.  For instance, taking up a religion and fleshing its story out.  Sure, I wouldn't recommend you lead a realm if you haven't the time but if you're into RP, you don't always have to be an active realm ruler.  Sometimes you can just be a noble in someone else's RP or a simple priest.  Or a wandering mercenary.  I happen to have a character that's just a wanderer that goes around taking up odd jobs.  I never spend more than 10 minutes on the guy a day.  But it works.


I know you created the Bloods of the Black Road.  Do you really think you couldn't do something fun with that in a way that would also be a little more passive and less time-consuming?