Author Topic: players / realms abusing exploits....  (Read 4429 times)

stueblahblah

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2016, 02:50:55 PM »
Social criticism may have better effect than mechanical punishment if abuse is not really cruel. Why not to publicly criticize player who is doing unfair things expecting him to be embarrassed and stop such behavior instead of severely punishing him?

I am talking about "unaligned" punishment, the one that is milder than the act committed.

Ratharing

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 03:08:43 PM »
Sure its a web game with logs. Now show me ANY commercial web game where exploiting and cheating has been stopped in it tracks by serve punishments. Show me one where the volunteer GM's are even able to keep up with the backlog of complaints and investigations they need to run. People are still going to think they won't get caught, because that is human nature. They will think, well first someone has to twig to the exploit in order to report me. Then Tom needs the time to investigate. Or, well I am using my "unimportant" account so who cares, my valuable characters are protected.

Indeed, if anything people are more willing to risk cheating on the internet. The consequences and chances of getting caught are much smaller. Usually people simply adapt, and use more disposable accounts for the game after they lost their main one, or even feel entitled to trolling and engaging in noxious behavior at will.

I would suggest that to build a better community, we need to be less interested in weeding out and punishing exploiters, and more interested in making sure those affected by such behaviour feel validated, helped and compensated for the disruption to their game. That is not to say that identifying habitual exploiters is not important, just that there are far more effective ways to spend effort if the goal is building community.

I subscribe to DeLegro's words.

Social criticism may have better effect than mechanical punishment if abuse is not really cruel. Why not to publicly criticize player who is doing unfair things expecting him to be embarrassed and stop such behavior instead of severely punishing him?

That is what the IG and forum reputation systems try, and frankly fail miserably at.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 03:10:16 PM by Ratharing »

stueblahblah

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 05:27:29 PM »
IG reputation apply to characters, not to players, and I would not say it failed. It simply still did not come to life.

But you are helping me to be more precise - it is exactly additional OOC reputation what we need, not as formal point system, but as a way of publicly frowning on unfair play followed by expectation that such player will make more efforts to bring back reputation.

Ratharing

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2016, 05:38:12 PM »
The result of that tends to be isolated cliques dividing the game, plus a lot of OoC mud-slinging, and not the betterment of the players.

Tom

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2016, 05:40:28 PM »
Sure it's not a magic bullet. But the best I have is to crucify trolls, in public, and make them lose everything, not just the disposable account. Once it's established that if you make me sufficiently angry, I _will_ track down all your accounts and take everything from you, I strongly believe that there will be an effect.

Of course at the same time it needs to be established that this doesn't happen for unintentional mistakes.

stueblahblah

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2016, 08:39:04 PM »
The result of that tends to be isolated cliques dividing the game, plus a lot of OoC mud-slinging, and not the betterment of the players.

you believe those who play unfair will form a clique? i believe such cliques can function only in dark. once you reveal such behavior as inappropriate, even without any punishment, most of people will be embarrassed to continue that way, not only the guy in question, but his buddies as well.

there are no too many people in general who can completely ignore the rest of community when exposed to direct contact with them. and that can be achieved by some sort of moderator's message sent via game interface now and than.

tom allows great freedom to all and it is no wonder that he is very angry when seeing some do not appreciate that at all, or even abuse that.

one example of that is constant flow of complaints from free players who are dissatisfied with how little they get with free account. lol, i'm not gamer at all, yet i was through number of some online games, and did not see a single which allows that much compared to level of complexity this game offers.

meaning - some people simply need mild reminder that their perception of what is fair might be wrong. more than one, few reminders at least before they are expelled. it works with many people... severe punishments are necessary evil, but not a way how things can be improved.

De-Legro

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2016, 10:04:23 PM »
Sure it's not a magic bullet. But the best I have is to crucify trolls, in public, and make them lose everything, not just the disposable account. Once it's established that if you make me sufficiently angry, I _will_ track down all your accounts and take everything from you, I strongly believe that there will be an effect.

Of course at the same time it needs to be established that this doesn't happen for unintentional mistakes.

Tom, I have helped in the past to gather the sort of  information required to identify multi cheats in BM. As a solo Dev are you really saying it is a good idea to dedicate the sort if time it takes to track the accounts if even mildly competent players covering their tracks?
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Ratharing

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2016, 03:34:41 AM »
snip


The problem with your reasoning is that you oppose evil cheaters x good players, while in reality there are many shades and several points of view. People tend to diminish the errors they and their friends make, and increase the ones made by those they don't like.


Example: Player A doesn't like his enemy (Player B) who he thinks is abusing the multiple-evade bug (he is certain the other player is doing it, but cannot in fact know, as he doesn't get a message when his enemy failed to disengage). For that reason Player A uses that bug and any other he can against his enemy. Player B is outraged at the clear cheating of his opponent, and starts trolling him with spawned characters (but of course without making public it was him). Both accuse each other and you can guess where it goes.


Reputation solution: both smear each other both IG and in the forum. Forum reputations accumulate negative votes and their characters insulting rumors (at least those that can be linked, and also some bystanders that got mixed up in the fray).


Moderation solution: non-involved moderators step in and speak with each player, attempting to diminish the tensions, respond to each other's accusations, and take appropriate measures.


Both solutions have risks, and both have rewards. I, personally, prefer the second one.

De-Legro

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2016, 03:53:40 AM »

The problem with your reasoning is that you oppose evil cheaters x good players, while in reality there are many shades and several points of view. People tend to diminish the errors they and their friends make, and increase the ones made by those they don't like.


Example: Player A doesn't like his enemy (Player B) who he thinks is abusing the multiple-evade bug (he is certain the other player is doing it, but cannot in fact know, as he doesn't get a message when his enemy failed to disengage). For that reason Player A uses that bug and any other he can against his enemy. Player B is outraged at the clear cheating of his opponent, and starts trolling him with spawned characters (but of course without making public it was him). Both accuse each other and you can guess where it goes.


Reputation solution: both smear each other both IG and in the forum. Forum reputations accumulate negative votes and their characters insulting rumors (at least those that can be linked, and also some bystanders that got mixed up in the fray).


Moderation solution: non-involved moderators step in and speak with each player, attempting to diminish the tensions, respond to each other's accusations, and take appropriate measures.


Both solutions have risks, and both have rewards. I, personally, prefer the second one.

By the way there are two tells for multiple evade. The first is the easiest, if they fail to evade and have movement set, currently they will start to move while remaining in battle. The second requires you to be online, if you check the battle in the action queue, it will show an entry for opposed by when someone is attempting to evade. If the same character is evading over a long period, they are probably attempting multiple evades.

As to the actual point you make, I agree. Self moderation assumes a rational perspective is maintained. I think the last month or so shows how quickly that can be lost.
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Stonedman

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2016, 02:38:53 PM »
Today the Lowlands (Tor Kortaur, Tor Graves, Tor Fullakin and Children of Armok) Massively exploited the "assist bug" so that their 1100 troops fought in two battles at the same time.
I didnt know about this bug till yesterday, but i tried it on a couple of my characters in the area, and indeed you can set multiple assists to join multiple battles at the same time.




This was very dissapointing to see considering they already had a numerical advantage, and the home territory bonus so we were already fighting with reluctant troops.


I do hope we will not see this happening again.




a battle near Vanguard - year 8, week 58, day 1[/size][/color]
Participants[/t][/size][/font][/color]
Calarg of Vaiwelion[/t]
[/font]
Vérmundur Snö









a battle near
Vanguard - year 8, week 58, day 2
Participants[/t][/font]
Sir Michael Markson[/t]
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Dorian

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2016, 03:34:05 PM »
What exactly is the abuse? Military Aid makes you join all battles that are within the range of the noble you are defending. Both of these battles were in range so it is only naturally that the 1100 army fought on the perimeter of 500 yards. You can't isolate your targets and prevent them from receiving help just by attacking them in several different battles.

Stonedman

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2016, 04:52:02 PM »
you are only meant to be able to "join" a single battle.


Otherwise, you could "join" more than one, but you cannot.


So obviously this is a glitch in the military aid feature.
If it's not a glitch, then both options need to be aligned and you should be able to "join" multiple battles as well.

stueblahblah

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2016, 08:14:03 PM »
I can understand that you don't like losing the battle, but how do you know that in this particular case players did some intentional exploit?

I mean, people press "aid" button and send troop in the area - how can you be certain that there is malicious intention in that? For me, multiple attack on the  same noble  is illogical and create all kinds of mess. And if noble who is helped is actually attacking, than it might be intentional feature?

Dorian

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2016, 08:26:35 PM »
My character was a part of this battle and I intentionally used the Military Aid for I knew it was the only way to participate in two battles. If it is an exploit, I really did not know, but it would seem really weird that if my archers wanted to shoot the enemy incoming from the south that I stop them and tell them "Hey" Don't shoot those. That is another battle and we're already invovled in this one!" Point is, if there are nobles close enough to interact then these battles should be able to merge into people supporting each other if they wanted to. Don't know if this is so, but it is a bad game design if it isn't.

Insanegame27

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Re: players / realms abusing exploits....
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2016, 08:39:48 PM »
Mmhmm. Except Children of Armok isn't Lowlands.

E oh sorry it's just a butthurt person who declared religious war on the lowlands and the Children decided they didn't like you either. Huh, go figure. Go, have a drink of water and calm down.
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