Author Topic: New character abuse  (Read 3354 times)

Weaver

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2016, 02:48:37 PM »
Well, if the trolls/toxics drive out the good players, why not put them to work to drive out the bad ones. Nature does it. Why would you put a player with good morals at the head of a force of nature like that? No, you take someone with no compassion or empathy, and you put him to good work. Besides, it's not like these super gods will be around 24/7. I figure Tom'd just ask someone to play this character, once he is created, and do a specific job, like: 'These guys are abusing and harassing people- go give them a taste of their own medicine.'. And voila. Sure there will be tears and rage, but isn't that exactly what you want at that point? You give them the cold shoulder then and there, and they'll leave.

Besides, I wasn't entirely serious. That kind of intervention would probably hurt in the longterm, depending on how it's done. But, then again, which is more important. The health of the game now, or in a year or two? I mean, either way it was just a semi-serious, semi-joking, suggestion. But if I was the dev? I'd do it. Tom says the things happening would get people punched in the face, IRL. Well, the super character I described would be exactly that.

Not that I'd ever use one, mind you, and I reiterate that I don't feel the topic of this thread would be deserving of such measures. I'm just saying, I have troops. I have characters. I lead a faction with people in it. If I saw someone abuse against me to the point that it drives me crazy, I'd show them 0 mercy, not report them to Tom. Tom can lock his account for 1 day at first strike, but I can realistically destroy his entire Realm and be done with him forever, and, quite frankly, there is nothing he can do, because it's IG. It's not like I'd abuse, or do OOC shenanigans. No, just straight up annihilate him. But that's just me, and thankfully, my perspective on 'abuse to the point it drives me crazy' is pretty far out there. More than likely, when that point is reached, I'd neither have a faction, characters or troops anymore, so there's that. In the end, it's a game. Someone using cheats, or OOC methods to beat me, in the end doesn't mean that much to me. It's not like getting mugged in real life, or getting shot at. Abuse in a game environment will happen, by accident or on purpose, and there is no avoiding that. But putting too much thought and care into it, is like raising the white flag. So what? Your 'assets' got hurt a little. Or a lot. So what? A silent grudge kept for a long time can be a lot more painful than a voice heard on the forum. Look at Tom, his character Parvulus held a grudge against Weaver for IRL months. And when he blindsided me, boy, did I wish I was never born.

Learn something from both Tom and myself. Quietly note what the player did, and remember it, remember to pay him back one day, reason for war or not. Just blind-side him and threaten to ruin his toys. The exploits will get patched away, and all he accomplished with abuse is make sure you have less mercy to show when the time comes for payback. That is what I think and how I'd deal with this kind of thing.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 02:59:29 PM by Weaver »

Ratharing

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2016, 03:11:11 PM »
No they are more then that, you only have to look at the responses generated in the civil war to see the damage it can lead to. When people feel cheated, feel the other side plays unfair, it encourages reciprocation. It encourages escalation. And no one is immune to that, not players, not moderators and not developers.


That is why you need non-involved parties moderating, and public rules and rulings. Rule-less sandbox is the playground of trolls.

Foxglove

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 04:38:55 PM »
When people feel cheated, feel the other side plays unfair, it encourages reciprocation. It encourages escalation. And no one is immune to that, not players, not moderators and not developers.

Very true. No-one is immune to flashes of anger or the "I'll teach you" reaction. Which is probably why the board game analogy is particularly valueable. If you're playing around a table with a few people and one of them starts to play unfairly, then someone else starts to escalate or reciporcate, the others can tell them to knock it off. Or just walk away and leave them to it, meaning they no longer have a game. No matter who you are - the game designer, the referee, or what ever - there are still other people to tell you you're being an idiot or too involved.

That is why you need non-involved parties moderating, and public rules and rulings. Rule-less sandbox is the playground of trolls.

One answer does seem to having game moderators who aren't involved in the game. But it would be difficult to do. Imagine the real world counterpart of having a police service and judiciary who lived on the moon and only came to Earth to answer emergency calls. Someone from outside the game world being parachuted in to a world they neither know or understand. You really have to be a part of a world to understand it.

In terms of improving player attitudes, I think we need to get something into the Terms of Service about playing standards - give some benchmark that's clear, open, and available for anyone to see. Then maybe we need some sort of game moderation group that measures things against the benchmark in the Terms of Service and can just issue friendly cautions to players who look like they're stepping over the line. Nothing too heavy to start, but just a reminder that it's meant to be a fun game for everyone. Then, if they persist, go on to the more serious sanctions like account locks or IC ideas like hitting them with natural disasters as a judgement of the gods. By having a moderation group, you also maybe partly replicate that analogy of a few people sitting around a table playing a board game. Even though none of them are immune to in-game escalations and reciprocation, they also have a group of people around them to remind them of their own behaviour too. Peer group pressure in a constructive way.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 04:42:36 PM by Foxglove »
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Insanegame27

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 08:34:11 PM »
What you need, Tom, is more moderators to help... well... moderate the game, so people using every OOC trick in the book are found quickly and spoken to / wrist slapped / ban hammered

For the benefit of those without super vision, what the tiny little writing actually says is:

"What you need Tom, is more moderators to help... well... moderate the game, so people using every OOC trick in the book are found quickly and spoken to/wrist slapped/ban hammered.

Post moderated to make it readable
;)

THANK YOU FOXGLOVE, I dont know why it was ubersmall
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 10:08:40 PM by Insanegame27 »
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Dorian

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2016, 09:02:38 PM »

I had my ups and downs with this game but my general conclusion is that it is a great game, even unfinished as it is. However, my opinion is that the game design has been wrong from the start when it comes to the social rules and behavior. In another thread I have proposed a concrete social agreement or contract that the players will need to sign to play the game, which would include fairplay and atmosphere, just like in BM. I have been sporadically playing BM since 2007 but I think this game is way better, provided the set of rules of behavior and control can be put down. The facts are, like in all matters that involve people, without rules things start to crumble as people will always see their actions justified. Self-criticism is a trait not many humans possess.


I think that the major boost for abusing the system is being anonymous. When you know people won't know who controls the character the appeal to abuse they system will be greater. But, if your character links directly to the account, and when everyone sees the players name there and all of his characters, the player will think twice. We often draw the parallel with board games, but when playing a board game you know who you are playing with. The same should be applied here. Additionally, in addition to character gossip, every player could receive OOC marks/medals for game behavior. The abusers would be easily distinguished. One account per player should definitely be enforced, despite the loss of players this may cause. Quality over quantity any time.


I also think that limit on spawning character monthly should be drastically lowered. I don't know what it is but I have managed to create more than five of them in the last month. This should be reduced to lower numbers, such as three or maybe two. This will no doubt prevent or at least slow down the crazy create/kill trend.

Foxglove

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 09:23:33 PM »
I think that the major boost for abusing the system is being anonymous. When you know people won't know who controls the character the appeal to abuse they system will be greater. But, if your character links directly to the account, and when everyone sees the players name there and all of his characters, the player will think twice. We often draw the parallel with board games, but when playing a board game you know who you are playing with. The same should be applied here. Additionally, in addition to character gossip, every player could receive OOC marks/medals for game behavior. The abusers would be easily distinguished. One account per player should definitely be enforced, despite the loss of players this may cause. Quality over quantity any time.


I also think that limit on spawning character monthly should be drastically lowered. I don't know what it is but I have managed to create more than five of them in the last month. This should be reduced to lower numbers, such as three or maybe two. This will no doubt prevent or at least slow down the crazy create/kill trend.

The big advantage to being anonymous is that it gives the good players (i.e. the majority, I believe) much more freedom to play in different ways. You can create a controversial character without it tainting all your characters. If you get bored of one family or one place, you can start again with a blank canvas somewhere else without the past following you. You can be on both sides of a war without anyone accusing you of spying (and several players have played honestly and fairly on both sides of wars during the life of the game using entirely different families). Also, anonimity may also encourage people to play outside of usual groups of players that form. Ultimately, I firmly believe that the anonimity benefits the game. Anonimity is also actually as much a protection against harassment - if no-one can trace everywhere you play in the game, you can always escape from the obnoxious.

Besides, if people really go all out to manipulate the game through vast numbers of characters, they aren't going to shy away from creating multiple accounts to do it, even if we did have a one account-per-person rule. As I understand it, the high time demands of policing multi-accounting is also one of the reason why people are allowed to have multiple accounts here as long as they pay for them.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 09:26:48 PM by Foxglove »
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Dorian

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2016, 09:36:39 PM »
The big advantage to being anonymous is that it gives the good players (i.e. the majority, I believe) much more freedom to play in different ways. You can create a controversial character without it tainting all your characters. If you get bored of one family or one place, you can start again with a blank canvas somewhere else without the past following you.


That may stand if you were playing only one family; but not even then. Black sheep in the family don't really hurt the rest of the characters if you play with normal people who understand the role that is being played. But with more families or characters of different surname it is only normal to assume that not all of them are 'good'. If I see someone playing three sets of families I really wouldn't mind one of them being controversial; nor all of them actually. I would actually give even better marks or have a better opinion on the player if he can separate the normal and controversial characters/families.

Foxglove

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2016, 09:47:57 PM »
I've seen characters in BM immediately banned from realms or marked as troublemakers because they come from the same family as controversial characters on other continents. Even when the player has sent an OOC message saying the current character hates the rest of its family. Hell, I once saw a character hounded across multiple realms just because of the family name. I honestly believe the same thing would happen here if people could link every character and family to their players.
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stueblahblah

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2016, 07:52:40 PM »
I've seen characters in BM immediately banned from realms or marked as troublemakers because they come from the same family as controversial characters on other continents. Even when the player has sent an OOC message saying the current character hates the rest of its family. Hell, I once saw a character hounded across multiple realms just because of the family name. I honestly believe the same thing would happen here if people could link every character and family to their players.

what you describe are circumstances that came out of bad atmosphere created out of community mismanagement imo. you cannot implant "ideal" behavior in players brains, but sort of common agreement of what is fair can be developed within community with enough effort and time. rulers in bm were always discouraged to do such things as ooc banning just for recognizing family name, some still did it, and that was seemingly wrong.

creating visible links would serve one thing only - to recognize those who permanently and deliberately destroy fun to others by  all commonly accepted criteria, where "dragging" of game mechanics is the most straightforward one.

negative side of links being visible could be mitigated by tending fair-play conduct. everybody should be given chance to play their characters as differently as they want, but only those who always annoy everyone else could be recognized as such.

De-Legro

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2016, 09:58:19 PM »
what you describe are circumstances that came out of bad atmosphere created out of community mismanagement imo. you cannot implant "ideal" behavior in players brains, but sort of common agreement of what is fair can be developed within community with enough effort and time. rulers in bm were always discouraged to do such things as ooc banning just for recognizing family name, some still did it, and that was seemingly wrong.

creating visible links would serve one thing only - to recognize those who permanently and deliberately destroy fun to others by  all commonly accepted criteria, where "dragging" of game mechanics is the most straightforward one.

negative side of links being visible could be mitigated by tending fair-play conduct. everybody should be given chance to play their characters as differently as they want, but only those who always annoy everyone else could be recognized as such.


Actually no, banning characters from renown families of trouble makers was never "discouraged" It was indeed a perfectly fine IC action. Using the OOC ban available to rulers to accomplish this, was not acceptable, using the IC ban powers of a Judge was.
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stueblahblah

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2016, 02:16:22 PM »
That has nothing to do with IC: marking another character of some player as the same like some other character who made trouble in past, that is action against player, not character, and such actions that indeed existed caused worst destruction of game fun and playability.

that's another story, right now there are other actions from people that i feel to be the very same minority who want to permanently harass us all - i am trying to maintain 3-4 active knight offers all time, but face the very same faulty behavior every several days: someone takes offer and than goes on his own without a single word.

all those characters are marked as new, but I am 99% sure this belongs to the same harasser or group of them who constantly piss over everybody else - how high is probability that 3,4 new players behave absolutely the same, ignoring all those introduction messages and screens at beginning of game, ignoring everything and just running around without a word? i believe it is zero probability - we simply need to identify people who absolutely don't care for all appeals to behave fair, and atmosphere will be much better.

De-Legro

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2016, 02:48:32 PM »
That has nothing to do with IC: marking another character of some player as the same like some other character who made trouble in past, that is action against player, not character, and such actions that indeed existed caused worst destruction of game fun and playability.

that's another story, right now there are other actions from people that i feel to be the very same minority who want to permanently harass us all - i am trying to maintain 3-4 active knight offers all time, but face the very same faulty behavior every several days: someone takes offer and than goes on his own without a single word.

all those characters are marked as new, but I am 99% sure this belongs to the same harasser or group of them who constantly piss over everybody else - how high is probability that 3,4 new players behave absolutely the same, ignoring all those introduction messages and screens at beginning of game, ignoring everything and just running around without a word? i believe it is zero probability - we simply need to identify people who absolutely don't care for all appeals to behave fair, and atmosphere will be much better.


90% of knight offers since the beginning of the game have resulted in two outcomes
1) Silence then slumberblight
2) Take the troops and disappear
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WVH

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2016, 05:40:37 PM »
90%?  Is that an actual calculated statistic or did you make it up?

Constantine

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2016, 06:55:04 PM »
Unfortunately it is quite accurate.
I myself always have knight offers up and ~ once a week/two weeks a knight joins. Yet I currently have only two active vassals in my Duchy. And of these two one I managed to recruit via in-game roleplay and another has only joined yesterday and we'll have to see if he sticks around.
To be fair, during all this time only a few ran away with the troops. The overwhelming majority just falls into slumber.

Stonedman

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Re: New character abuse
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2016, 09:12:09 PM »
I have only ever had one knight stay active for any period, and that was right when the world opened.


every other knight has gone into slumber after a month or so.