Author Topic: Laughing  (Read 8586 times)

Weaver

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2016, 08:42:46 PM »
As I've said before, beats me. Kommagene hasn't really replied yet, so maybe he isn't around? Though it happened quite a while ago. Your terms just didn't work out.

Kommagene

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2016, 03:50:58 AM »
Hey,


I was going to reply about what? I was going to RP... Couldn't have the time...


Didn't you surrender? Yes?


BTW: Thank you for a good opinion of me.

Insanegame27

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2016, 09:58:17 AM »
I see nothing wrong with Weaver's attitude here. People were attacking him ingame because OOC reasons, and they got wrecked. It is pretty much within his rights to laugh at them, I would laugh at them if I were in his position. So what if Weaver is toxic, I would be toxic too if people ganged up on me OOCly, even if they were getting annihilated. See thread 'A call to fair play' from Tom.


BTW, have you got any knight offers up, Weaver?
Now I have a mental image of horses lined up in a goods factory, building things on an assembly line.

Tom

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2016, 01:26:13 PM »
Weaver did get another warning for his posts here, but not for the initial "I laugh at you" post. That's a bit edgy, but ok. But a few posts further down it becomes clear he confuses "rage zone" with "I can say whatever I want, fuck other people".

Also, at least AFAIK, nobody ganged up on Weaver OOC. True, support was brought in from far away, from both sides. And both sides didn't see the IC links that brought their enemy support in.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 01:28:06 PM by Tom »

De-Legro

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2016, 01:43:29 PM »
Weaver did get another warning for his posts here, but not for the initial "I laugh at you" post. That's a bit edgy, but ok. But a few posts further down it becomes clear he confuses "rage zone" with "I can say whatever I want, fuck other people".

Also, at least AFAIK, nobody ganged up on Weaver OOC. True, support was brought in from far away, from both sides. And both sides didn't see the IC links that brought their enemy support in.


We saw most of them quite well from the House Of Order side, and those we couldn't see, we simply assumed exist since this is a limited communication/limited information style game. I can't see people messages, I can't know if character A and character B who happen to be rulers have been best of buds for in game years. I simply prefer to assume IC links exist rather then start accusing people of OOC actions. If I had wanted to be OOC for instance, I would have simply have had Hawks declare war. In fact there was a time when Taticus and Weaver discussed combining their realms before this war. I rejected the idea because I couldn't see how such a power bloc would be at all good for the game, but ties between Hawks and Weaver go back a long way, starting with some rather disastrous diplomatic work he performed while still a mere knight in the Imperium. Only a handful of people are ever going to be privy to all those events, those messages and the slow building of the relationship to the point that Taticus grudgingly respected him.


That is the crux of the problem. You are rarely going to see most of the IC links in this game, the private messages between rulers and the like. So you have a choice, assume that people are dealing fairly with you, or assume that anything you aren't privy to is OOC and go around casting accusations.
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stueblahblah

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2016, 08:00:44 PM »
maybe you have best intentions, but i truly don't understand hawk stance during this war.

playing as quite low ranked noble on the other side, i had approach to lot of ic communications, political declarations, agreements, allegiance changes, all that through ic channels.

could it be said for the other side? why hawks is making so many explanations of their stance through ooc elaboration when putting that ic would make game much more wealthy?

for instance, there is no any formal declaration of relations between hawks and holy lands, yet they act as allies for months in mountains. why? you can make simple declaration on realm pages that would give any player at least some clue, but if you are totally secretive, how to make any difference between ooc and ic when nothing ic is available to general players base? nobody asks you to reveal your secret plans, but giving at least some information to ic world would make things much more meaningful.

De-Legro

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2016, 01:52:30 AM »
maybe you have best intentions, but i truly don't understand hawk stance during this war.

playing as quite low ranked noble on the other side, i had approach to lot of ic communications, political declarations, agreements, allegiance changes, all that through ic channels.

could it be said for the other side? why hawks is making so many explanations of their stance through ooc elaboration when putting that ic would make game much more wealthy?

for instance, there is no any formal declaration of relations between hawks and holy lands, yet they act as allies for months in mountains. why? you can make simple declaration on realm pages that would give any player at least some clue, but if you are totally secretive, how to make any difference between ooc and ic when nothing ic is available to general players base? nobody asks you to reveal your secret plans, but giving at least some information to ic world would make things much more meaningful.

Hawks has nothing to do with the holy lands. Nril and Redgorge might, but Hawks as an empire do not. As it has been explained to me there is nothing official, they simply both want to see your family out of the area, and as the Holy Lands seemed.unable to manage it Redgorge stepped in.

Again Hawks as an empire has no standing in the war, something we have explained in game to anyone that asked. You know this, since one of your own realms did bother to ask and you were privy to the conversation.

We explain OOC and IC. IC because that is fun. OOC because IC simply does not counter the bullshit we are putting up with. Take your example, you have now accused Hawks of "secret plans". Why? You know you family is not welcome in Elysium nor anywhere near it. They hunt kill and execute every Balkopan they can. So when you take settlements in your border do you think they are going to sit around and let you establish nearby? Oh but if course they MUST be allies with those you took land off. There is no possible explanation. So welcome to being part of the problem Stue. You want to make IC accusations of secret alliances and what not fine. Secret alliances exist in the game and I see no reason people should have to advertise them, kinds destroys the secret bit. But I'm not going to sit around and see people level those same accusations OOC, especially with no evidence beyond, " well that's how it looks to me"
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Tom

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2016, 08:50:30 AM »
That is the crux of the problem. You are rarely going to see most of the IC links in this game, the private messages between rulers and the like. So you have a choice, assume that people are dealing fairly with you, or assume that anything you aren't privy to is OOC and go around casting accusations.

That is true, but again remember that all this came on top of some clearly OOC game-mechanic abuses. Once you have seen that another player is using cheats, the "assume everything is as it should be" basis has fallen off.


Tom

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2016, 08:54:25 AM »
for instance, there is no any formal declaration of relations between hawks and holy lands, yet they act as allies for months in mountains. why? you can make simple declaration on realm pages that would give any player at least some clue,

That is true, but most realms are guilty of that. The diplomatic relations as available in the game right now are not being used very much.

That should change, it would make things easier to understand.

stueblahblah

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2016, 03:10:16 PM »
Hawks has nothing to do with the holy lands. Nril and Redgorge might, but Hawks as an empire do not. As it has been explained to me there is nothing official, they simply both want to see your family out of the area, and as the Holy Lands seemed.unable to manage it Redgorge stepped in.

Again Hawks as an empire has no standing in the war, something we have explained in game to anyone that asked. You know this, since one of your own realms did bother to ask and you were privy to the conversation.

We explain OOC and IC. IC because that is fun. OOC because IC simply does not counter the bullshit we are putting up with. Take your example, you have now accused Hawks of "secret plans". Why? You know you family is not welcome in Elysium nor anywhere near it. They hunt kill and execute every Balkopan they can. So when you take settlements in your border do you think they are going to sit around and let you establish nearby? Oh but if course they MUST be allies with those you took land off. There is no possible explanation. So welcome to being part of the problem Stue. You want to make IC accusations of secret alliances and what not fine. Secret alliances exist in the game and I see no reason people should have to advertise them, kinds destroys the secret bit. But I'm not going to sit around and see people level those same accusations OOC, especially with no evidence beyond, " well that's how it looks to me"

within my abilities to write english i did not use any expression that would look as accusation, i just pointed at how i see hawks in general and wonder why are you surprised when somebody else (not me) in moment of rage frown upon you and send some indication that there is too much ooc too little ic playing.

if everything is secretive in practically all your dealings and at the same time you use say irc or other channels to communicate within realm i wonder how the rest of player community will differ ooc from ic in your case? your realm is so large and powerful that you or some other diplomats within your realm should make efforts at least sometimes to provide background of your story to overall player community, to give them some feeling that you are interacting with others, at least sometimes.

having two empires practically allied to fight against one branch of one single family has potential for all kinds of roleplays and stories but you guys make all efforts to cut all possibility of it in roots by sacking any kind of interaction. to be honest, there is no fun for me to play that way, not because my family suffers so many lossess but because i have no possibility to interact with someone.
however, all my chars and branches have their stories and that's the only way how i could play. if i would remove from some territory only to avoid bullies, that i could hardly have fun to play anywhere. there are certainly many ways how to get rid of someone ic, but bullying is not one of them.

this is not about me, though, i used only one illustration, and the other i saw in this civil war. supply of troops for weaver from hawks territory was major influencing factor of war operations for rl weeks, yet we were deprived of any ic information about it; all explanations came through this forum, which is typical example of game degradation - all that could have been brought ic, which would make lot of fun ic instead of making lot of players to players bickering ooc.

there should be something like say public responsibility for large empire, that they need to be aware how they should make some way to frame their events in game world at least to the extent that player community will feel them as a part of game world. if you make actions that create major influence on ic world and announce that exactly those actions are top secret actions, most of people will see it as if you are bringing major decisions to ooc domain and you should be aware of that.

FARevolution

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2016, 06:11:34 PM »
First off, Hawks does not have/need diplomats, we've been doing just fine without them. Also Elysium did warn you, you decided to keep bugging Elysium.

De-Legro

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2016, 10:39:29 PM »
within my abilities to write english i did not use any expression that would look as accusation, i just pointed at how i see hawks in general and wonder why are you surprised when somebody else (not me) in moment of rage frown upon you and send some indication that there is too much ooc too little ic playing.

if everything is secretive in practically all your dealings and at the same time you use say irc or other channels to communicate within realm i wonder how the rest of player community will differ ooc from ic in your case? your realm is so large and powerful that you or some other diplomats within your realm should make efforts at least sometimes to provide background of your story to overall player community, to give them some feeling that you are interacting with others, at least sometimes.

having two empires practically allied to fight against one branch of one single family has potential for all kinds of roleplays and stories but you guys make all efforts to cut all possibility of it in roots by sacking any kind of interaction. to be honest, there is no fun for me to play that way, not because my family suffers so many lossess but because i have no possibility to interact with someone.
however, all my chars and branches have their stories and that's the only way how i could play. if i would remove from some territory only to avoid bullies, that i could hardly have fun to play anywhere. there are certainly many ways how to get rid of someone ic, but bullying is not one of them.

this is not about me, though, i used only one illustration, and the other i saw in this civil war. supply of troops for weaver from hawks territory was major influencing factor of war operations for rl weeks, yet we were deprived of any ic information about it; all explanations came through this forum, which is typical example of game degradation - all that could have been brought ic, which would make lot of fun ic instead of making lot of players to players bickering ooc.

there should be something like say public responsibility for large empire, that they need to be aware how they should make some way to frame their events in game world at least to the extent that player community will feel them as a part of game world. if you make actions that create major influence on ic world and announce that exactly those actions are top secret actions, most of people will see it as if you are bringing major decisions to ooc domain and you should be aware of that.


What Secrets? Hawks is largely isolationist, except when we march to war in which case those we fight against certainly know the IG justifications. Sometimes those justifications are weak yes, you know why, because I try for flawed characters whom just like real life people make illogical choices. Being autistic myself I don't always do a great job of this because frankly most of the world is illogical to me and I see patterns and correlations that don't generally make sense to others.


IRC is not used to communicate with the realm, how could it be, three players out of the entire realm use IRC. All communication, at least from my end as ruler of Hawks is performed via the in game messaging system. So again, you cast accusations, one that you have no proof for beyond your own assumptions.


I am not going to start posting every decision of Hawks in the forum, let alone the decision of every sub realm, even if I knew all of them which I obviously never will. Much of that information is available IC in the game, and works exactly as Tom designed. A limited communication system is always going to me that information is sparse, local. I'm not going to be held to some higher account of reporting, especially given that I already spend 5+ hours a day in this game just keeping Hawks running and trying to make it interesting. Suggesting to anyone that they have a responsibility to pour more time in this game simply is quite frankly insulting.

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Tom

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2016, 01:50:40 AM »
What he means is that even your isolationism isn't visible from the outside. Very little is. That is a problem. Maybe partially of game mechanics, but partially of roleplaying and interaction.

De-Legro

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2016, 01:53:40 AM »
What he means is that even your isolationism isn't visible from the outside. Very little is. That is a problem. Maybe partially of game mechanics, but partially of roleplaying and interaction.


And we know next to nothing of Black Forest. Hawks has no idea about why there is a new "2nd" Imperium. We hear nothing of Rathgar either. You going to claim none of them interact or Roleplay? You designed a game that is about LOCAL interaction. Of course people far away are less then well informed.
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Tom

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Re: Laughing
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2016, 09:15:08 AM »
As I said, part of it is due to game mechanics. That is why I'd like to spend less time hot-fixing and more time developing things like the war declaration so that diplomacy is actually being used.