Author Topic: Yay bandits  (Read 3757 times)

Insanegame27

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Karma: +7/-3
  • I am the Bopmaster, master of Bops.
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2016, 01:48:28 PM »
Of course, bandits may actually pillage for gold if they had a use for it. As it is, no-one pillages for gold because bandits can't do anything with it. Right now all they do if burn stuff down, and it takes weeks of dedicated burndownery to make much of an impact to the target settlement, and if someone leaves you burning shit for weeks, then they deserve that place burned to the ground
Now I have a mental image of horses lined up in a goods factory, building things on an assembly line.

Constantine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
  • Karma: +19/-10
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2016, 04:14:32 AM »
I actually tried burning a village down with a bandit and found it an impossible task. You can choose which buildings to damage, so it's something different every time and buildings just get repaired sooner than you can destroy them.

Lann

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Karma: +16/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2016, 11:20:41 PM »
Such a simple idea but effective,allowing First Ones to take gold from Bandits.  In fact, I think it'd be good if First Ones could take the gold off any other First One they killed. Make it interesting and profitable for characters to kill each other.

Also how you feel Andrew about bandits once again being able to enter settlements and use inns?  I know some people didn't like it in the past, but honestly, it was incredibly fun, sparked actual intrigue, wasn't overpowered in the slightest, provided a money sink, gave bandits a way of interacting meaningfully with First Ones, allowed the First Ones the ability of recruiting these less-than-reputable individuals toward mischief, and made these criminals actually relevant, as with proper and constant financial backing, they could become legitimately threatening.

It was far more interesting than the system we have now where these bandits just attack a settlement or feature, get ignored, and then peter away when they finally get tired of never getting any meaningful interaction and decide to suicide against a castle wall.  I've found myself actually REGRETTING playing a bandit because rather than being fun, it just comes across as just another thing I have to do that ultimately feels like a waste of time. 

Seriously, I never understood why Tom removed the features for bandits to enter settlements and use inns.  It seemed totally reactionary to the outright whining at the time from the same players that always whined about everything when things didn't go their way.  The result actually ended up hurting game balance when they got what they wanted.  Back then, in terms of balance, funding a bandit to maintain inn-provided mercenaries was risky, expensive, and could always be traced back to the character funding them.  But in exchange, it really did allow for some great RP and amazing fun.  What do you say Andrew?  Can we make bandits great again?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 11:24:08 PM by Lann »

Andrew

  • Game Master / Lead Developer
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Karma: +75/-7
  • Mildly Amused
    • View Profile
    • Lemuria Community Fan Site
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2016, 04:55:56 PM »
The feature was removed because people were abusing bandits to fight their wars for them, which goes against the entire point of bandits. They are bandits. May make it so bandits will deliberately not fight alongside first ones in regular field combat. Or at least, not willingly. Tempted to make it so they auto-attack their own side if their side has non-bandits on it. Which would be kind of funny the first time it happened.

That said, I've been toying with the idea of giving them hideouts that they can return to, build up, recruit at, and such. That might come along with bandits not starting out with these ridiculous hordes of warriors they have now as well. Turn them into a thing that starts out as a pest but can eventually turn into a serious problem.

I like the theory of bandits, but I don't like them as they are now. They either appear in areas that can stomp them or in areas that they can stomp. They appear with ridiculous loadouts. And they don't make much sense from an in-game perspective (given their loadouts).
Standing for the creation of interesting things since Year 1, Week 5, Day 4.
Favorite cold beverage: Strawberry Shake
My hobbies: Fixing computers, video games, anime, manga, some other stuff, sleep (in no particular order)

Constantine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
  • Karma: +19/-10
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2016, 08:34:45 PM »
I think bandits don't live up to their potential for one simple reason. They just have no other purpose than senselessly griefing other players. If bandits had more stuff to do they'd definitely be more interesting.

Dystopian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +4/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2016, 04:50:39 AM »
Why can't it be one bandit per account? I've ran into a guy using them to ooc intimidate me recently and while I don't care as nothing came of it, I wouldn't want it to happen again.

Andrew

  • Game Master / Lead Developer
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Karma: +75/-7
  • Mildly Amused
    • View Profile
    • Lemuria Community Fan Site
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2016, 10:36:20 AM »
One bandit per account? It is. You can only ever have one bandit.

Unless you mean one bandit per account ever? We'd run out of people to play them.
Standing for the creation of interesting things since Year 1, Week 5, Day 4.
Favorite cold beverage: Strawberry Shake
My hobbies: Fixing computers, video games, anime, manga, some other stuff, sleep (in no particular order)

Lann

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Karma: +16/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2016, 03:47:54 PM »
The feature was removed because people were abusing bandits to fight their wars for them, which goes against the entire point of bandits.


"Abusing"  You see this is where you, Tom, and I disagree.  Abuse?  How was it ever abuse?  I see this word thrown about a lot, but never once has anyone proven what was going on to be abusive in any way.  Just what about this ever broke the game?  For there to be abuse, you need some kind of unfair advantage imparted via exploit, of which there was none here. It's not like bandits were just getting these armies from thin air.  It took revenue, Andrew.  Money and resources from someone somewhere.


Everything I did with bandits back when I hired them regularly to go attack my foes, I could have done with regular player characters that decided to be mercenaries. Just give them access rights to a settlement with an inn, drop a buttload of gold on them, and say "have fun".   Except those First One characters can ALSO receive soldiers, own settlements, generate their own income, train and move militia, etc.  Bandits by comparison are much more limited.  AND they can't evade a fight.  So comparatively, if you're looking for the best bang for your buck, you're actually much better served hiring a First One mercenary than a bandit mercenary as they can take over settlements, run from fights whenever they feel like it, and receive regular armies rather than rely on inns. 


And we can do that to this day.  So how was bandits having this one little thing they could do to interact with regular First One characters so bad? 


They are bandits.
[/size][/font]

Yeah and so what?   You know highwaymen regularly did take payment for services right?  Many did work as mercenaries.  Or sometimes they would accept payment from nobles, merchants, and such as 'protection fees' to stop harassing roads or attacking towns.  Or accept random fees for capturing important individuals.  Before Tom took that away from them, the bandits in this game could do that as well.  They had a use for money and so money was a way to buy them off, get rid of them, get a family member back, or pay them to work for you. 


But now suddenly, they can't do that anymore because "they are bandits."  I fail to see how this is remotely an argument.

Look, I might understand if you were arguing against players directly giving militia over to bandits (though honestly even then you can do that already with an anonymous First One player for hire), but we're talking just giving them gold and letting them hire mercenaries from inns.  For them to do that, they need to either force their way into a settlement that has an inn and somehow manage to have stayed alive long enough and raided enough wealth to hire a company for a brief period of time (possible but temporary and difficult).  Or they need a First One to fund them and grant them access to a settlement with an inn.  And the thing is, that's costly.  Giving a bandit money to go hire mercenaries is very costly work and is traceable, what's more by just looking at the bandit's profile page.  Oh and if you have bandits going behind your settlement walls unopposed by the local guards, that too is suspicious and visible to anyone passing through. 

When I was playing more little shadow game with a bunch of bandits, it was difficult to keep that hidden and anyone could have bust the lid on that at any time.  Instead, they chose to whine about it and Tom reacted.   

Quote
May make it so bandits will deliberately not fight alongside first ones in regular field combat. Or at least, not willingly. Tempted to make it so they auto-attack their own side if their side has non-bandits on it. Which would be kind of funny the first time it happened.
  [/size]

Their own side... which side is that?  No one can fund them and they have no use for money anymore so, at present, bandits have no side.  Or are you talking about those players that take their bandit and use it to support their main character?  I mean, I guess that'd be funny and karmic.  But we already have a system in place where bandits lose soldiers the further from their 'home' region they get.  So unless someone gets lucky enough to play a bandit in the same region their main character is during war time, just how much of an advantage are they really getting here?  What a hundred extra soldiers that can't be restocked?  Seems unnecessary to me but sure.  If you want to have them attacking all sides in a scuffle, be my guest.  But the only way you'd do really do that is by making them auto-attack First Ones any time one shows up in their effective range.  And that means, the only way they'd ever be able to interact is by attacking. So want to pay them a ransom to get a captured friend back, or keep them off your land, not happening.  Just seems like yet another hurdle to make playing a bandit utterly boring and lacking in interaction.
Quote
That said, I've been toying with the idea of giving them hideouts that they can return to, build up, recruit at, and such. That might come along with bandits not starting out with these ridiculous hordes of warriors they have now as well. Turn them into a thing that starts out as a pest but can eventually turn into a serious problem.



So essentially, the bandit would just sit in their hideout waiting to either build enough of a force to roflstomp someone with or for some First One to drop by and kill them before they can get started.  Either way, they'd just sit there.  Not interacting.  Not doing much of anything really.   Just waiting to be relevant.  And then when they are relevant, they'd just attack a random place and that'd be the extent of their interaction.   Yay...

This still doesn't explain why a bandit would feel the need to attack anyone.   They can't use any resources they loot.  They can't use the settlements they hit in any meaningful way.  They gain nothing by attacking another First One.  And they get nothing from talking to them.   


And the real problem here is that the player gains nothing by playing as a bandit.  You only ever do it because you think you'll get lucky enough to start as a bandit in a part of the world where you can use that bandit to support one of your main characters (which we all agree is OOC and bullshit).  OR you're doing it because you think you're doing some kind of civic duty to the community, which you aren't because you're irrelevant and everyone knows it.   OR you really are a new player that's bought into the idea that you'll be able to get into some thrilling fights, until you realize you have to sit for weeks  just to build up the amount of men to be a threat, assuming the local First Ones don't stomp you before you even begin.  Somehow, I don't think this is a great first impression for new players wanting excitement.

Quote

I like the theory of bandits, but I don't like them as they are now. They either appear in areas that can stomp them or in areas that they can stomp. They appear with ridiculous loadouts. And they don't make much sense from an in-game perspective (given their loadouts).


Well maybe they just need to be done away with then?  At present, they're not working, they're not fun, and they have no purpose.  What you want really is an AI to control them and have them spawn and attack targets randomly for a little suspense; but either you don't have the resources, the time, or the knowledge to set that up so you task this boring job out to players who don't really care to undergo this kind of pointless busywork. 


Look I'm sorry.  I know this post probably sounds a bit harsh and I'm being a downer here, but what exactly is the vision for these bandits?   It's like Tom wanted them about to provide a little spontaneity to the game, but the moment he got that spontaneity, it was all just too much and they got nerfed so far into oblivion that they're just another part of the routine now, both for First One characters who completely ignore them because there's nothing these bandits can really do to them 99% of the time, and for the bandits themselves who have pretty much no fun at all because their whole job is 'go to x.  click on y.  wait to die.'[/quote][/quote]
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 04:08:50 PM by Lann »

Andrew

  • Game Master / Lead Developer
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Karma: +75/-7
  • Mildly Amused
    • View Profile
    • Lemuria Community Fan Site
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2016, 06:54:28 PM »
A number of us, myself included, may have used bandits as they were intended. To sow a little chaos and be a hand for people who didn't want to dirty theirs. However, until we can find a way to make them unique and not something easily abused, they'll remain as they are.

Quote
For there to be abuse, you need some kind of unfair advantage imparted via exploit, of which there was none here. It's not like bandits were just getting these armies from thin air.  It took revenue, Andrew.  Money and resources from someone somewhere.

You do know that bandits spawn in with up to like 180 soldiers fitted in ANY equipment, at random, right? The game literally gave them armies on spawn.

Quote
Their own side... which side is that?  No one can fund them and they have no use for money anymore so, at present, bandits have no side.  Or are you talking about those players that take their bandit and use it to support their main character?  I mean, I guess that'd be funny and karmic.

When I said that I'd just looked over the code that covers how battles work, and had been toying with redesigning it a bit to add more sides to it. If I don't actually add a graphic, but keep it to simply numbers, I could add in more-sided battles pretty easily. Taking a little more work, I could add in formations that give initial bonuses (as most units quickly disarray once they enter melee). And some more work beyond that would mean you could add in some semblance of a movement system, sort of like BM's. After that you could add in a strategic system to let you target (or not) specific units on the field.

It was mostly a joke statement that I thought it would be amusing to change the code a bit to make bandits either flip sides or make their own side if at the end of the melee phase they were allied to first ones. Doubt it'd be something I'd do, but was amusing to think about at the time.

All in all, I agree with most of what you say Lann, but I can't see what Tom saw about how bandits were or weren't being abused to further player advantages.

The reason I suggested ideas to change them is because I don't, personally, think they contribute much as is and want to change that.
Standing for the creation of interesting things since Year 1, Week 5, Day 4.
Favorite cold beverage: Strawberry Shake
My hobbies: Fixing computers, video games, anime, manga, some other stuff, sleep (in no particular order)

Ehndras

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: +9/-8
  • Urist Tarzath, Emperor of the Children of Armok
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2016, 09:02:11 AM »
Bandits are still ridiculously OP, it seems. Just had a bandit with a few hundred med-heavies randomly show up and murder my super-important RP character.

Would be nice if there were an option to go thru your dead char's old messages. So much lore and good writing I can no longer access :(
Mors Principium Est - Death is only the beginning

Constantine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
  • Karma: +19/-10
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2016, 07:17:13 PM »
Strange, all the bandits I got lately didn't have more than 80 soldiers.

Dystopian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +4/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2016, 07:49:04 PM »
Bandits are still ridiculously OP, it seems. Just had a bandit with a few hundred med-heavies randomly show up and murder my super-important RP character.

Would be nice if there were an option to go thru your dead char's old messages. So much lore and good writing I can no longer access :(


Its lost to time.

De-Legro

  • M&F Dev Team
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3109
  • Karma: +105/-54
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2016, 10:27:15 PM »
Bandits and the "abuse" are difficulty reign in without as Lann says destroying their fun. People saw them as merc's, which while I would argue was not their purpose was mostly fine so long as two players where involved. At least no different to rolling an unaligned noble to do your dirty work.

People's issue was however when you equipped and supplied your own bandit in order to fight without "consequence" and when area's where less established then they are now the act of moving a bandit half way across the world to overpower new realms.

The first of these abuses can again be performed by unaligned characters so who cares. The 2nd is situational and I would argue a consequence of not gathering the actual support needed for what should be a monumental act of founding a realm.

That said I long ago proposed something like Andrew, with hideouts and such to make bandits not front loaded with troops. Once time and effort are needed for them to aquire power of any kind I think the issues are resolved. What I want to see is some proper lore around them. Are they regenafe First Ones? Are they rebellious Humans and if so how do they avoid being placed under our mental powers?
He who was once known as Blackfyre

Ehndras

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 279
  • Karma: +9/-8
  • Urist Tarzath, Emperor of the Children of Armok
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2016, 11:02:56 PM »
I feel allowing bandits to have hideouts and thus not spawn with a crazy amount of troops would be very, very useful and a great move.

They have so much potential, and its being wasted.
Mors Principium Est - Death is only the beginning

De-Legro

  • M&F Dev Team
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3109
  • Karma: +105/-54
    • View Profile
Re: Yay bandits
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2016, 11:18:48 PM »
I feel allowing bandits to have hideouts and thus not spawn with a crazy amount of troops would be very, very useful and a great move.

They have so much potential, and its being wasted.

But then the question arises that if we make them too involved, why are they a special random character class.
He who was once known as Blackfyre