Author Topic: Thralls and resource production  (Read 2217 times)

Arx

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2016, 09:32:40 PM »
That's the negative effect on economic security showing.

Dorian

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2016, 09:38:46 PM »
You are probably correct. Still, one thrall (and the only one) in a settlement of 800 citizens reducing the economic security seems harsh. From the manual: Thralls, especially if there are a large number of them in relation to native population and militia, will reduce economic security.

De-Legro

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2016, 10:33:04 PM »
You are probably correct. Still, one thrall (and the only one) in a settlement of 800 citizens reducing the economic security seems harsh. From the manual: Thralls, especially if there are a large number of them in relation to native population and militia, will reduce economic security.


The problem is you are adding Thralls to a stable system. That in general never works. What you need to do is add Thralls to a growing population. The concept is that if you REPLACE regular peasants with thralls, then you see the bonus, as you are not running up against diminishing returns on production negating their effect.


Think about it, the system is already producing as much food as is reasonably possible, adding 1 or 10 more people does not make the land more productive then it can be, and simply adds a food burden. So take your 800 pop settlement, recruit troops/entourage to reduce the pop and then send in the thralls.
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Ratharing

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2016, 03:22:42 AM »
You are comparing populations of X with populations of X+Y, X being the number of freemen and Y being the number of thralls.


You need to compare two situations in which the total population is the same. If you have 600 freemen and 200 thralls you will likely have a higher food balance than if you have 800 freemen.

De-Legro

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2016, 03:44:25 AM »
You are comparing populations of X with populations of X+Y, X being the number of freemen and Y being the number of thralls.


You need to compare two situations in which the total population is the same. If you have 600 freemen and 200 thralls you will likely have a higher food balance than if you have 800 freemen.

Exactly.
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Tom

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2016, 09:27:48 AM »
Feeder settlements are those where you could have a higher population, but you don't because you export your surplus.

So you have 400 people producing 600 food and you export 200. => stable.
Assume that this is the equilibrium point, i.e. the 400th peasant produces exactly 1 food.

So if you add peasants, your actual food surplus will drop.
But thralls eat 75%. Let's say the break-even point for that is at 500. So you can add 100 thralls (ignoring economic security, etc.). This will give you the integral between 1.0 and 0.75, roughly 87.5 additional food. Since they only eat 75 of that, you have another 12.5 food that you export, and again you have a stable settlement.

But if you simply replace 100 peasants with thralls (e.g. looting the settlement for thralls, and sending them to itself). You have the same 600 food production, but only 300 + (100*0.75) = 375 food demand, so you can export 225. Again, ignoring economic security, etc.

Feeder settlements profit from thralls.

Thralls are also a buffer against starvation - they die faster, allowing the normal people to return to normal sooner.

WVH

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2016, 08:05:14 PM »
Thralls are also a buffer against starvation - they die faster, allowing the normal people to return to normal sooner.

I think that is what has helped save Valenshallen.  Because of downsizing (letting realms break off and end trade and all that) it has gone from a population near 12000 to 3548 civilians , 507 militia         , 1749 thralls.  This resulted in -200 to -800 food nearly all the time.  It would balance to zero, then another few hundred food would be canceled and it would drop again.

But even when the food was -800 it still said it was a minor shortage of food.

Constantine

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2016, 03:18:41 PM »
Thralls are also a buffer against starvation - they die faster, allowing the normal people to return to normal sooner.
I'm trying to reduce my thrall population currently and I can attest that thralls and freemen die at the exactly same rate.

Jhon2221

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2016, 12:24:07 AM »
What would you guys say is the safest way to reduce thralls, when i first started playing i captured a lot of them, which later became my Capital. Now half the population is thralls and i'd like to gain more peasants. Suggestions?

De-Legro

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2016, 02:04:05 AM »
What would you guys say is the safest way to reduce thralls, when i first started playing i captured a lot of them, which later became my Capital. Now half the population is thralls and i'd like to gain more peasants. Suggestions?

Turn thralls off and see what happens. Since Toms change I have been losing thralls.
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Jhon2221

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2016, 07:36:01 PM »
They haven't changed yet, 1250 thralls is a ton. It's really hurting my economic security.is there any way we could introduce a system of thrall slowly becoming peasants, to simulate thralls buying their freedom or masters releasing them? This only applies if slavery is barred of course.

Tom

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2016, 10:52:58 PM »
They haven't changed yet, 1250 thralls is a ton. It's really hurting my economic security.is there any way we could introduce a system of thrall slowly becoming peasants, to simulate thralls buying their freedom or masters releasing them? This only applies if slavery is barred of course.

Disallow slavery and this will happen, but it's a slow process, don't expect much change in a day.

Jhon2221

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2016, 12:38:50 AM »
Disallow slavery and this will happen, but it's a slow process, don't expect much change in a day.


Does the estate have be growing for this to take place? I have had slavery off since the change and the number has yet to change.

Tom

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2016, 09:17:58 AM »
Does the estate have be growing for this to take place? I have had slavery off since the change and the number has yet to change.

Yes, if it grows or shrinks, the process will be much faster. If it is stable, change will be very slow.

Jhon2221

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Re: Thralls and resource production
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2016, 06:58:44 PM »
Yes, if it grows or shrinks, the process will be much faster. If it is stable, change will be very slow.


Well, after a few weeks with no thrall change, i believe i can safely say it's not going to move. Keep in mind, the population has been growing and falling due to change in tribute as well as building as mass recruitment. When the thralls died from starvation, they didn't come back, however none of the thralls are actually turning into freefolk.