Author Topic: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions  (Read 6646 times)

Ruairidh Mr

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Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« on: January 09, 2016, 07:20:23 PM »
First of all, I would like to thank you for creating this fantastic game - I have already met some great people, and I look forward to seeing what more will come in the months and years ahead.


Secondly, I would be interested in helping to add more designs to the heraldry designer.  There are a few posts that mention new charges need to be in SVG format, and public domain - is there anything else that is required?  e.g. let's use a picture from wikimedia commons, and the heraldic "charge" I would most like to see added, the Lymphad (Galley).  It is in SVG format - but not black and white for the "colour fill" option.  What additional work would I need to do to make that image compatible?  Is the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license acceptable or must it be strictly public domain?


Thirdly, would it be possible to get a "darken" option for the heraldry designer in a similar manner to the "shading" checkbox, or perhaps an option to specify RGB codes for each colour option?  The brightness of the current colour choices are a bit hard on the eyes sometimes, and I would happily purchase a few Heraldic designs for my characters if there was a way to make the options a bit more subdued.


Lastly, and this one is unrelated to heraldry, but a few customization suggestions.  One of the things I feel the game does well, is that it offers a number of customization options to the player - these are not only fun, but allow for a greater sense of immersion, rp, and feeling of being drawn into the world of the game.  Here are a few thoughts that have been bouncing about in my mind:


(I)  Allow each realm to choose what to call their troops:  e.g. I rename Light Infantry to Caterans, and they appear as "Caterans (Light Infantry)."  This way customization is allowed, but without the potential abuse of obfuscating what troops are accompanying a character for other players.  I would be fine with attaching a cost to this, say 25-50 credits or so to change each troop type/unlock the ability to rename each troop type?


A battle report might then look something like:


Initial Troops
30 Caterans (Light Infantry)            45 Woad Raiders (Light Infantry)
42 Gallowglasses (Heavy Infantry)  23 Berserkers (Medium Infantry)
10 Boar-Riders (Light Cavalry)        16 Nobles of Lesser Extent (Light Cavalry)
etc


(II)  Allow us to add descriptions to settlements, that can changed in a similar manner to the rename settlement option (6 Hour or so action cost).  Just a simple text box, similar to the realm description, that would appear when we go to the info page of the respective settlement.


(III) It would be nice if the culture packs contained some examples of the names provided.  I bought the "Northern European" one anyway, assuming it will include a nice mix of Norse, Gaelic, and Anglo-Saxon names in addition to others.  I still really only have a small idea of how much that is the case, but It seemed like a quick option to throw a few initial credits towards the support of a game I enjoy.  As for the other options, I would like to have an idea of what I am getting.  Southern European - is that more oriented towards Latin & Greek?  Sure I'd spring for that.  Spanish and Portuguese?  Probably not, but others would jump at the chance.  I know it does not really do a whole lot now, but It would be nice to have a bit more specifics as to what exactly it is that I am purchasing.


As an addition to the above, it would be fun if you could choose subsets within each pack.  e.g. Gaelic, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, English, Swedish, etc.  So culture Northern European would be all of the above, whereas culture Norse would only be the Norse subset.  Or even a "custom" pack where you can define the culture, and add the names yourself (perhaps the "custom" option would come at 2-3 times the cost due to the additional work required?)


At any rate, I just thought I would throw these out there!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 07:25:20 PM by Ruairidh Mr »

Ratharing

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2016, 07:43:21 PM »
All sensible suggestions.

Arx

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2016, 08:01:21 PM »
I'd love the soldier category custom names.

Roran Hawkins

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2016, 01:07:42 AM »
Sounds interesting! One could almost remember Weaver's troop type names through this.
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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 11:38:27 AM »
More customization always means more code and I'm stretched thin as it is. My other career in IT security takes my attention right now.

I won't offer RGB code changes in heraldry, because these are actual heraldic colours, and no deviation is allowed.

New charges can be added, yes. For them to work, the SVG file must be built like the ones I am using, for example:
http://mightandfealty.com/bundles/bm2site/heraldry-svg/charges/reindeer.svg
The heraldry editor relies on the file built exactly like that, just with different paths.


Ruairidh Mr

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2016, 09:19:50 PM »
More customization always means more code and I'm stretched thin as it is. My other career in IT security takes my attention right now.I won't offer RGB code changes in heraldry, because these are actual heraldic colours, and no deviation is allowed.New charges can be added, yes. For them to work, the SVG file must be built like the ones I am using, for example:http://mightandfealty.com/bundles/bm2site/heraldry-svg/charges/reindeer.svgThe heraldry editor relies on the file built exactly like that, just with different paths.



Fair enough, I'm sure you have plenty on your plate, and I can only imagine the extra-stress of coding, managing an online game, and responding to customer queries in your spare time.


In regards to the heraldic colours/tinctures, I am going to quibble a bit.  While heraldic colours and tinctures offered guidelines in regards to colours, the actual shading of those colours varied quite a bit in practice.  For example, the Coat of Arms of Marseilles is : Argent a cross azure i.e. A Blue Cross on a White/Silver Background.  Doing a quick google search will show all of the various shades and hues it has been portrayed in, but the traditional colouration is more of a lighter blue.  Using the current heraldry designer, you would need a shade halfway between its Azure and Blue Celeste to replicate it properly.


One of the other examples I like to use when discussing heraldry, is that of MacLeod of Lewis.  A few years ago the Heraldry Society of Scotland published a gorgeous version of the Dunvegan Armorial (c.1580).  On pgs 132-133 They reproduce the image, and describe the blazon as Or, a rock Azure in flames proper.   What is especially neat is how in the Appendix on pgs 226-227 They show how the coat of arms is portrayed in the Armorial de Berry, the Hague Armorial, the Forman/Workman Manuscript, the Sir David Lindsey of Rathillet Manuscript, the Sunderland Hall Memorial, the Slains Armorial, and the Dublin Armorial.  Each of them depict Or, a rock Azure in flames proper, but how the rock is stylized, the shades of blues and yellows, etc, all differ quite considerably.

This was not unusual - while the official description of the Blazon, Crest, and Supporters would be the same, how it was interpreted would depend on locally available dye and personal preference.  So in my first comment I did not mean to insinuate that the colours themselves where somehow incorrect heraldrically or anything of the sort, it was just feedback that as a consumer, I would like to have more shades of each metal/colour/stain available.  As it is, I cannot represent many of the colour and charge variations found in my heraldry books that I think would be perfect for my characters, which results in me not purchasing heraldry despite a desire to do so.

Al least in regards to the charges, hopefully I can contribute to the game in that manner.  Regarding the SVG files, It looks like RGBA f70101ff is what gets coloured in the charge colour picker, and RGBA 00000000 is what you use as the transparency?  You also want the same file dimensions as the one you provided, with the position of the image being higher in the centre so it works well with the various shield types.

Unless there is something else from the above that I have missed, hopefully the attached image will meet your standards. It is a somewhat modified version of the Lymphad that appears in the quartering of the Arms of the Duke of Argyll here, which was released into the public domain.  I would be more than happy to contribute other charges in my spare time to add to the available heraldic options.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 09:22:39 PM by Ruairidh Mr »

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2016, 03:59:16 PM »
More customization always means more code and I'm stretched thin as it is. My other career in IT security takes my attention right now.

I won't offer RGB code changes in heraldry, because these are actual heraldic colours, and no deviation is allowed.

I still don't understand this. Your view makes perfect sense if we're playing a game set in medieval europe, not so much if we're playing a game modeled after medieval europe. Some minor variation from reality isn't an insult to the heritage of heraldry but a logical extension of the theme already in use. I mean, there weren't nigh-immortal First Ones or wolf-sized arachnids or barghests or troglodytes, in Medieval Europe, but a few minor changes to heraldry to allow more players to find something that fits them is somehow taboo?

We're supposed to be a people with a history of our own from before the Gods War, but adding a some more shades or maybe a not-so-realistic metal wasn't in the scope of the history that's already incredibly vague?
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Tom

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2016, 10:16:12 PM »
There is a reason that there is a finite, fairly small set of colours, and that is distinguishability. You can describe most medieval heraldry with a few simple words, and when you say "argent", everyone knows which colour you mean and when you spot something blue on the battlefield, you don't have to look which shade of blue it is.

While it is correct that depending on circumstances, the tinctures would look slightly different, they were still unmistakable. Maybe french blue was a little darker and german blue a little more pale, but it was still clear that it meant "blue". If I introduce shades that are actually different, two people could make an identical banner except that one uses dark blue and the other light blue - but that is exactly what doesn't work according to the rules of heraldry.

I already added additional tinctures that were pretty uncommon, or only used in some areas. But I added them after careful consideration and the set I picked was selected so that uniquity is maintained.

Ruairidh Mr

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2016, 09:44:15 PM »
(My apologies, this thread had slipped my mind until it was mentioned in another thread)

From the former Lord Lyon King of Arms for Scotland, Thomas Innes of Learney's Scots Heraldry: A Practical Handbook on the Historical Principles and Modern Application of the Art and Science, pg. 53:


"The colours may be of any shade most suitable for the work at hand, but bright colours usually look best in heraldry."


I get that you want the arms to be distinctive and unique - but as an example, even having a dark blue, light blue, and the present RGBA 0000ffff blue for "azure" would allow a bit of extra customization, especially for those of us who find 0000ffff to be a little too digital of a shade of blue to be attractive.  You could still have it that the choice of light blue, dark blue, and 0000ffff locks out all of the other blues in the Azure category for that particular heraldic element.  Allows for greater customization and variety for the players, while preserving heraldic uniqueness in the game.

Just one player's opinion on the matter.

In regards to the Lymphad I attached above, were there any changes that needed to be made?  As I mentioned above, I would be happy to add to the heraldic options of the game in my spare time.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 09:47:23 PM by Ruairidh Mr »

Tom

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 01:54:44 PM »
I'm quite adamant (as are most writers on heraldry) to not allow light and dark shades of the same colour.

However, I don't mind changing the current colour values a little if it makes the visuals more appealing. I'm not a designer or colour expert.

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 02:09:08 PM »
I'm going to be honest, I seriously don't understand the difference that Sanguine and Gules brings to the table. I can see a difference on my monitor some of the time. If you asked me, I'd say that sanguine is slightly darker.
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Ruairidh Mr

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2016, 06:54:54 PM »
I'm quite adamant (as are most writers on heraldry) to not allow light and dark shades of the same colour.

I would be interested in seeing which sources reference this (if not already evident, I have an interest in heraldry) - I admit I'm most familiar with the heraldry of the British Isles which agree heraldic colours can come in a variety of shades:

Quote from: A Grammar of English Heraldry, W. H. St. John Hope, pg. 13-14
There has never been any rule as to the tint of a colour, and so long as gules, azure, vert, and purpure can be fairly described as red, blue, green, or purple, the particular shade, whether light or dark, is immaterial

However, I don't mind changing the current colour values a little if it makes the visuals more appealing. I'm not a designer or colour expert.

I can do a bit of digging and see how some 15th century-ish examples translate into a rough RGB hex colour.  Help is welcome from anyone else who is interested.

**********
What follows below are more for me to go back to when I have a bit of time, and for those who have in interest in period heraldry:

In terms of blue, I would like to see more of a darker shade, closer to that found in medieval heraldry - such as in the Arms of Ren d'Anjou, King of Naples The manuscript itself is from c.1410, so contemporary with the 15th century inspiration listed in the manual.

These Arms from a manuscript dating to c. 1383 are neat, it shows two different shades of azure/blue - the demi-lion rampant is in a field of light blue, while the blue in the bottom half below the fess is a richer, darker blue.  It is from an Italian manuscript.

The Arms of Henry Despenser, bishop of Norwich, has a shade of blue with a bit of a greenish tinge.  The manuscript dates c. 1375-1406.

Here are a couple of arms from a dutch manuscript, c. 1482-1485, showing some nice red and blue.

The Arms of the Rotenham family of Bamberg, from a c. 1413 German manuscript.  Some white, red, and blue.

Arms from an English Breviary, c. 1446-1461 English manuscript.  Some nice Gold, Blue, Red, and Green.

Arms from an early 15th century Italian manuscript.  Gold, White, Black, and Red.

John Morton's Arms, from an Manuscript with English and Italian provenance, c. 1478-1486.  Brown, Black, and Red.

A woman holding two Arms, from a German manuscript c. 1517.  Red, white, and Gold - the tree is particularly gorgeous.

Arms of Pope Pius II, from an Italian Manuscript, c. 1458-1463.  Blue, White, and Gold.

Arms of Federico da Montefeltro, from a c. 1460-1470 Italian manuscript.  Blue, Gold, Black.

Arms of the Maffei family of Volterra, from a late fifteenth century manuscript.  Blue and Gold.  Here it is again, this time from a 12th century Italian manuscript.  And yet another from a late fifteenth century manuscript, a bit fancier than the two earlier versions.

Unknown arms, Italian manuscript, c. 1425, blue and gold.

Arms of Tedaldi, late fifteenth century Italian manuscript.  Blue, Red, Gold.

Unknown Arms, late fifteenth century Italian manuscript, Gold and Blue.

Unknown Arms, c. 1477 Italian manuscript, red and gold.

Unknown Arms, c. 1440-1470, Italian manuscript, red and black.

Arms of the Donati family of Venice
, Italian manuscript, c. 1462 - Red and White.

Arms featuring a Lion Rampant, c. 1500 French Manuscript, Gold, Red, Black.

French Arms, c.1569 French manuscript.

Arms of the guild of barber-surgeons of the city of York, late 16th century English manuscript.  Gold, Red, Black, White.

Drawing of Aurelius Ambrosius bearing the arms of England and Elol bearing the arms of Gloucester in pursuit of Hengist at the gates of Conisbrough.  Early 14th Century English Manuscript.  Gold, Red, White, Blue.

Arms of Henry VII, King of England, c. 1504-1505, English Manuscript.

Various Arms from a c.1440 English manuscript (Scroll to the bottom for links to the images).  A few dozen different arms.

Various coats of arms on a tower,c. 1485-1509 English manuscript.  10 different arms.

Unknown Arms, c. 1500-1510 French Manuscript, - A nice lighter shade of blue.

Unknown Arms, late fifteenth Century Italian manuscript.  A nice darker shade of blue.

French Arms, c. 1470-1480.  Nice Blues.

Fleet of ships of the expedition of the English and French to Barbary, many Arms
.  c.1470-1472 Dutch manuscript.

Statuts et armoiries des chevaliers de la Table Ronde de Bourges, (scroll down for images), French Manuscript, c. 1486-1533.


Some Fully Digitized Documents:


The Rous Roll, c. 1483, English.  (scroll down for images)  Many different arms.

Sir Thomas Holme's Book of Arms, c.1445-1525 ((scroll down for images) You will want to get past the first dozen or so folios before you start to get into the knights on horseback bearing arms and such.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 06:57:29 PM by Ruairidh Mr »

Constantine

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2016, 08:50:42 PM »
Well, I thought it was common knowledge that early heraldry only dealt with 7 colors.

But more importantly, we currently have very few charges in heraldry editor and with time people would inevitably create extremely similar crests if we allow different shades of same colours.

Lann

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2016, 09:43:50 PM »
Just an idea but you could potentially add extra heraldry color and sigil options based on culture.  For instance, the central european culture is a 'default' culture and thus will always have only the typical default heraldry options available.  However, if you buy northern, southern, eastern european, oriental, indian, etc. culture packs, you may, by extension, gain access to extra heraldry options relevant to that cultural 'style'.  This way, regions separated by differing cultures can have coats of arms more suited for that culture. 

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Re: Heraldry & a Few Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2016, 09:46:25 PM »
Yes, but the problem with sigils is that I need the proper SVG files in the proper format, and they are not easy to come by.