Author Topic: Battle spam lock  (Read 3379 times)

Tom

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2016, 11:30:46 AM »
In other news, I have thought long and hard about this borderline abusive scenario. Ironically, while I was working on it, I've become involved in just this situation. That makes it a little easier to write this:

I understand now why everyone was in favor of having a "resolve this immediately" button. When I saw myself engaged by one noble with one archer, I wanted the same.

However, I had already decided against it. Why? Because it again rewards activity too much. You need to be online to press that button. At the same time, I also wanted to keep this a viable, if desperate, strategy, because delaying an army on the march with guerilla, even suicide attacks, is quite real. What was unreal was the vast amount of time it took.

So instead, what I have done is changed the battle preparation timer calculation a little. It will now give much reduced preparation time for the scenario tiny attacker vs. large defender. This way, the attacked person doesn't have to be online, and while such a move will still lock you down, it now does for maybe 2 hours, and not for 8 hours or so. In other words: Even if you get stopped by a wave of sacrifical attacks (as I call them), by the time you wake up in the morning, they've already been resolved.

This change is not yet active, but will go online with the next update, probably later this day. It will partially affect existing battles as the battle preparation timer is recalculated under certain conditions.

Weaver

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2016, 02:22:34 PM »
Well, I suppose there are a few different shades to this problem. The archer that stopped you was there just to begin the battle while we did other things in the city. Before I went to sleep, I set military aid and went to sleep. Otherwise it would've been tricky to attack you, since there is no 'hunt down' button. There is a block, but it doesn't let you move.

stueblahblah

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2016, 03:04:39 PM »
Ok, I can understand the logic behind, though I cannot fully imagine it in practice.

There is still one issue which looks illogical to me - character without single soldier cannot set evade, so he can be indefinitely chased in the way De-Legro described.

Tom

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2016, 07:58:59 PM »
Well, I suppose there are a few different shades to this problem. The archer that stopped you was there just to begin the battle while we did other things in the city. Before I went to sleep, I set military aid and went to sleep. Otherwise it would've been tricky to attack you, since there is no 'hunt down' button. There is a block, but it doesn't let you move.

Yes, but I came with almost 400 men. One archer should not prevent such an army from moving. But this has been discussed extensively in this topic and the agreement is old, it was just a question of how to implement a solution.

Weaver

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2016, 08:07:58 PM »
Indeed, I like your solution- it is what I originally suggested as well. If someone wants to stop an advanced force, he should simply give more troops to the advanced force and problem solved.

De-Legro

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2016, 10:18:02 PM »
Yes, but I came with almost 400 men. One archer should not prevent such an army from moving. But this has been discussed extensively in this topic and the agreement is old, it was just a question of how to implement a solution.


It should not take 8+ hours to draw up battle lines either, but it does. Travel should not necessarily stop just because someone else sits there shouting, hey you I want to fight, but it does.


I have always RP'd battles as involving rituals similar to the Geas in the fiction for surrender. Thus the small force perform the rituals which by the magic of the First Ones halts the advance of the opposing. Counter rituals are performed to evade the battle. This nicely explains away things like blocking a force on an open plain without engaging, as well as smaller forces stopping much larger ones.
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Tom

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 12:37:27 AM »
It should not take 8+ hours to draw up battle lines either, but it does. Travel should not necessarily stop just because someone else sits there shouting, hey you I want to fight, but it does.

It takes 8 hours so that your opponent has an opportunity to act.

De-Legro

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 12:52:20 AM »
It takes 8 hours so that your opponent has an opportunity to act.


Sure, game mechanic wise is makes sense. RP wise you have to come up with something to explain it.
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Weaver

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 01:15:22 AM »
I'm with Legro on this one. I always figured there's a ritualistic approach to starting battles. Exchange of words, meeting the generals. Like we are all playing a big game of chess, not about to chop each other's faces off.

De-Legro

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 05:08:28 AM »
Okay first problem, it also allows for super fast (3 hour or so) battles when you initiate against a character with far less troops then yourself. That is just wrong and the poor guy I attacked will have bugger all chance to react before several hundred troops try to put holes in him.
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Tom

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2016, 12:56:30 PM »
I'm with Legro on this one. I always figured there's a ritualistic approach to starting battles. Exchange of words, meeting the generals. Like we are all playing a big game of chess, not about to chop each other's faces off.

I always envisoned that - according to my knowledge - medieval battles were actually a fairly formal procedure. Armies would maneuver for hours before any blows were exchanged, trying to get a good position, arrange all your units, check for an opportunity to attack, etc.

Tom

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2016, 01:02:40 PM »
Okay first problem, it also allows for super fast (3 hour or so) battles when you initiate against a character with far less troops then yourself. That is just wrong and the poor guy I attacked will have bugger all chance to react before several hundred troops try to put holes in him.

It shouldn't be. Battles under 7-8 hours of preparation time should only be possible if the defending force is much superior to the attacking force. Are you certain about this?

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2016, 01:51:57 PM »
I always envisoned that - according to my knowledge - medieval battles were actually a fairly formal procedure. Armies would maneuver for hours before any blows were exchanged, trying to get a good position, arrange all your units, check for an opportunity to attack, etc.

Yeah.... that's a common mistake.

De-Legro

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2016, 01:57:45 PM »
I always envisoned that - according to my knowledge - medieval battles were actually a fairly formal procedure. Armies would maneuver for hours before any blows were exchanged, trying to get a good position, arrange all your units, check for an opportunity to attack, etc.


Sounds more like the romanticised version of battles between early Greek City-States.
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Arx

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Re: Battle spam lock
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2016, 03:48:16 PM »
Yeah.... that's a common mistake.

Depending on the period and locality, he's entirely correct. IIRC, late middle-ages Italian armies would often fight battles with a single-figure casualty count because they would spend hours or days maneuvering and making feints before one side decided they couldn't get a real advantage and conceded the victory to the other.

Admittedly, it got them slaughtered when other people attacked, but hey. It happened.

Or look at the battle of Azincourt, if you like. The English army had time to deploy sharpened stakes and form up their army before battle was joined, by all accounts. Maybe not that long, but a while.

In the battle of Tours, the armies stared eachother down for about a week before the battle actually joined.

And of course, M&F has battles end instantly when battles could run on for eight hours or more.

There are a handful of other examples. Maybe the actual forming up didn't take that long, but the peripherals - trying to wait out your opponent, inching your shieldwall forward, waiting for last-minute reinforcements, and so on - could certainly run on that long.