Author Topic: Remove Stables from Autobuild  (Read 1814 times)

Weaver

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Remove Stables from Autobuild
« on: December 07, 2015, 06:37:28 PM »
I've been struggling with this for weeks now. People in my settlements keep wanting to build stables, and I keep canceling it, but they keep volunteering people to the project.

I wouldn't mind this half as much if horses actually ate hay or grass like they're supposed to, instead of meat and fish meant for my villagers.

Tom

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2015, 09:22:29 PM »
Every building that auto-builds does so for a reason. A settlement needs to be fairly big before stables are auto-built, and at that size people simply want horses. At this size there are some minor nobles and rich traders in the town, and they want coaches drawn by horses. They want to ride out to hunt. They want a horse and that's it.

Weaver

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 03:01:44 AM »
Let them get it from somewhere else. I don't have ~100 food to feed horses, I am building a military fortress. A military *infantry* fortress.

If these traders want a horse, they should feed it, not the settlement owner. I am not supposed to be responsible for every idiot's horse.

Military buildings should strictly be by settlement owner's choice. Everything that negatively impacts a settlement economy, should be settlement owner choice. The ability to execute every civillian who demands something that negatively affects economy, should be settlement owner choice.

I am getting tired of constantly abandoning stables. If the easy fix is out of the question, give us the ability to mark buildings we don't want to be built. Ever.

Tom

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 10:34:43 AM »
Let them get it from somewhere else. I don't have ~100 food to feed horses, I am building a military fortress. A military *infantry* fortress.

You are not building a fortress, you are building a town. That's a difference. The game centers on settlements, with people living there, not on fortifications that serve a purely military purpose. I actually do plan to add these one day, but it's low on the TODO list.


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Military buildings should strictly be by settlement owner's choice.

They are. Castles, Training Grounds, Guardhouses, etc. are never auto-built.
But walls or stables are not military buildings in the peasants minds. They are for protection, for the local economy, etc.

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Everything that negatively impacts a settlement economy, should be settlement owner choice.

Negative. That is not the game I made. Part of the game design of Might & Fealty is that your settlements are not mindless slaves, but have a mind of their own. They will try to auto-balance, they grow and shrink based on demand, and sometimes they decide that they really insist on having this building.

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The ability to execute every civillian who demands something that negatively affects economy, should be settlement owner choice.

Firstly, that would be every building, because they all have some effect, at the least they bind workforce.
Secondly, you are not meant to micro-manage every peasant. You are a noble lord who shouldn't count individual sacks of grain.

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I am getting tired of constantly abandoning stables. If the easy fix is out of the question, give us the ability to mark buildings we don't want to be built. Ever.

You are trying to play a slightly different game. We've had this before. I'm sorry, but you cannot jump in Pac Man and you cannot declare war without casus belli in Crusader Kings and you cannot micro-manage your peasants in Might & Fealty. These are just design decisions that were made based on the vision of what the game should be like.

Settlements are meant to largely run themselves. That is why the amount of workers in buildings is automatically determined, why resource distribution is handled by itself and many, many calculations run behind the scenes to allow players to run a settlement with a very light touch and minor efforts.

The trade-off is that this autonomy also means the lords saying "do not build stables" will have the peasants shake their heads, go home, and the next day rename the stable "horse-breeding guild" and go on with it. Because they want horses and if their lords doesn't get it then they'll find ways to please him and still get their horses.


Look, we've had this before and you have a very strong vision of how the game should be and sometimes it just isn't. Sometimes you are right and your way would be better, sometimes I have a good reason why I made it the way it is. And sometimes we just have different opinions.

But if you run against the wall again and again and again, maybe demanding the wall needs to be removed is not always the right answer. Sometimes understanding that there's a door two meters to the left is better, even if it means you can't go the straight way you wanted to.

So if you want your military fortress without stables, stay under the auto-building population level. Because if you don't, then you're not building a fortress. What kind of fortress has that many peasants living in it?

Weaver

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 11:00:28 PM »
Ok, you do have a point about my fortress having a few thousand too many civilians- and you are right about me having a strong vision. And considering that no one else has come around to ask for the same, I may be the only one who wants stables gone from the auto-build list.

Very well, I will back down and continue abandoning it. But at the very least look into why the horses eat so god damn much. For 0.8 horses a week, I spend ~150 food on them.

Tweeznax

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 02:29:03 AM »
Well, that might not be too far off. To sustain that many horses per week, you would have to have enough grown horses to produce one newborn horse per week. As large mammals, horses usually have one or two young per birthing I think and a suitably long gestation period. And then you would have to feed those horses while they grow and train. And of course your breeders will die, and some newborn horses won't make it or won't be good enough for battle.  And each horse must consume several times what a single person does.

150 food per week is enough to feed 150 people, but probably only enough to sustain 50 horses. I think you might need that many to approach one battle ready new horse every week.

Weaver

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 05:41:44 AM »
They don't "eat" the same food people eat. The same food a medieval person eats is downright poison to a horse.

Tom

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 07:44:23 AM »
They don't "eat" the same food people eat. The same food a medieval person eats is downright poison to a horse.

You mean grain and barley?

Of course it's an abstraction, the same way we have "wood" even though there are different types and "metal" without bothering about the difference between ore and ingots, etc.

Weaver

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2015, 07:54:57 AM »
Wheat, Fish, Meat- a byproduct of Wheat for human consumption is called 'Bran'. People don't eat it, but horses do. Hay is also something people don't eat- horses also eat grass right off the ground.

It makes no sense that a dozen horses would eat the seventh of an average settlement's supply of food.

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 10:07:22 AM »
Wheat, Fish, Meat- a byproduct of Wheat for human consumption is called 'Bran'. People don't eat it, but horses do. Hay is also something people don't eat- horses also eat grass right off the ground.

It makes no sense that a dozen horses would eat the seventh of an average settlement's supply of food.

Actually, considering that you can let horses free range over an area and eat on their own, I'm in agreement with this. These are just stables, not necessarily military structures.

For War Horses, it'd be a controlled diet, regimented training, but stables are just general horses.
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Tom

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Re: Remove Stables from Autobuild
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 10:46:42 AM »
Horses actually are more of food rivals to humans than most other farm animals, from what I know. We are not talking ponies and plow horses here.

But yes, maybe the numbers are a little high for small settlements.