Author Topic: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate  (Read 11092 times)

Andrew

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World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« on: November 23, 2015, 04:24:41 AM »
So, Hawks just declared war on the Grand Fate with the objective of taking over Leyonia. Apparently, Magvel has joined them, though I've heard nothing from Magvel on this yet.
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FARevolution

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 06:18:16 AM »
I wouldn't call it World War 1 just yet imo.

Ratharing

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 12:03:41 PM »
Hopefully other realms will be invited to take part in it, so it actually becomes WWI.

De-Legro

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2015, 12:07:51 PM »
Hopefully other realms will be invited to take part in it, so it actually becomes WWI.


Why, so we can fall into the escalation trap that leads to the end of wars? The massive alliance chains are already a big reason no one bothers with war.
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Stonedman

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2015, 12:19:45 PM »
we've already had world war 1 and 2 :p


maybe you can be world war 3 :)

Andrew

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2015, 03:32:09 PM »
And in the private ruler chat: "Tell her how she reminds you of a rose in bloom and of the mid morning sky as the sun crests the mountains to the east, and how each time you spar with words make you think about how much you long to hear her voice again."
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FARevolution

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2015, 04:11:01 PM »
And in the private ruler chat: "Tell her how she reminds you of a rose in bloom and of the mid morning sky as the sun crests the mountains to the east, and how each time you spar with words make you think about how much you long to hear her voice again."


I don't think people would get it unless they were privy to the whole thing.

Roran Hawkins

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 04:26:40 PM »
What a time to be alive! I'm invited to join both sides and I've got a war in the North brewing!
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Andrew

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 04:44:01 PM »

I don't think people would get it unless they were privy to the whole thing.

They don't need to get it to wonder how 4 rulers, 2 of which are at war with the other 2, somehow got on the topic of romance.
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Tom

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2015, 12:06:37 PM »
Wonderful! Finally we see some more war going on.

De-Legro

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2015, 12:33:07 PM »
Wonderful! Finally we see some more war going on.


To be honest it will probably be the last time I bother, which will likely mean I will call it quits with M&F. The rubbish amount of meta gaming on both sides, and the fact that so many realms that have NO association with either side, but whom see excitement at little risk to themselves, because they are too risk adverse to do anything themselves has just left me feeling like why did I bother spending the last month getting this in motion.
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Andrew

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2015, 02:36:18 PM »
Tom, my concern with war in Might & Fealty is the same it's always been. It's only ever going to be one realm that has fun, typically the aggressor, because they'll approach it with some overwhelming force.

I mean no offense to De-Legro by this, but when Elysium joined Hawks after they split from the Grand Fate, my thoughts were "Great. The two most belligerent and militant realms in the south just joined ranks." I makes sense with the lore established by Hawks on what their goal is, for them to recruit the largest military they can to rebuild their empire. But, the only thing war does is change who owns lands, because that's the only obvious way to prove victory. And with no other means to track things, that's the only method we have. A method that can destroy player retention. It's never just one region for major wars, it's entire areas. This war alone involves almost a dozen regions. Can you see that on a map? Nope. You'd have to view the diplomacy to see if it's listed. If anyone looks at that. Of course, we can't rely on that because it doesn't even tell anyone when it changes--why it doesnt' give an event is beyond me.

If it was Magvel against Leyonia, I might not have even done anything (why should I care when two realms of equal power go at it?), but I can't NOT do anything when it's Hawks against the Grand Fate. Of course, it would never be Magvel vs Leyonia, because the moment Magvel would attack Mercia would join Leyonia's side. Which would draw in Hawks as an ally of Magvel, which would invariable cause the rest of the Grand Fate to join. Arsecod would join as well as a full ally of Mercia, and then everyone else realizes that militaries are now spent elsewhere and you have a massive war going on and every attempt to make lore and create all that fancy stuff that makes this more interesting than a troop simulator grinds to a halt because we're too busy trying to hold on to existing.

You've repeatedly marketed this game as having a robust event system, but you won't let us even know when our realm wins a battle or who was in it. You can't even decide when a battle is won, because "this side had the most soldiers left at the end" apparently isn't adequate. When the entire enemy force is forced to retreat, how is that not a victory? In what world, would a nation have called a complete rout of their forces a victory?

The only method we have to know the forces of a neighboring realm is to either have the most elaborate spying program in existence within M&F (as if we aren't suspicious enough of every single new knight we get) or to fight them, as there's no way to see mobile forces until you've spotted them. There's no way we can we can apply appropriate force to a situation. Every war that hasn't been carefully orchestrated has resulted in a slaughter. Even the northwest is a great example, I hear almost daily complaints about how someone brought 300 soldiers over and is literally crushing EVERYTHING or how a bandit has enough soldiers to be considered a regional power.

Based on what I can guess and what I've been told, Hawks as a Realm has double or triple the military strength of the Grand Fate. There's virtually no way for me to know even what I'd need to stand a chance against that without information from players directly.

And then I see messages about people involving soldiers from the opposite side of the map. WTF? Why would they even care to JOIN us? If anything, it should be ignorance or "they'll be easier to raid now". Why would their soldiers even care to go that far. I'll be honest, I'm a political player, so when you declare war on me, I'll pull out every card I have if I think I'll lose, and knowing the numbers, I was sure I'll lose. My only reassurances are that De-Legro has straight up told players, after talking to him, "We're limiting the war to these areas. No attacks will be outsides of them so long as we are not attacked outside them."

I can't even say that I've got a navy to defend my isles with because we don't have navies. I can't even see across an otherwise flat ocean to see who's sailing by beyond 5km. Hawks literally parked a few thouand soldiers off the shores of Leyonia, and we knew... nothing. They parked them there for WEEKS. How the fuck are they not dead from starvation? Magical ferry boats of food? The average first one standing on the coast can't see more than 2km? Or 5km from a lookout? The average visibility on a clear day is 5km for a person standing on the ground. From a hill or tower, it can be up to 12.5km. That's the distance between most of the isles almost. Is this part of that weird travel nonsense?

The most we can do to say we were here is take land, give land, make a realm, give a realm, or inherit a realm. We only get fame for battles if someone else is in it and wants to talk about. We get a little thing on the character page but that means nothing when you could do that just training your soldiers.

The realms that have soldiers tend to stockpile them until there's someone to fight. And because we'll never know what a neighbor has, we'll keep stockpiling ad infinitum until we max out the regions ability to feed them. Oh. Wait. We can just put them on boats! YAY!

This war is not going to end well.
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Tom

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2015, 03:31:36 PM »
I can assure you that no thousand soldiers were parked on the ocean for weeks. I track all troops at sea to look for abuse, because right now yes, they are fed by magic. And for the past few real-life weeks, there were maybe a thousand troops in total at sea, and half of the names on the list changed all the time, indicating normal travel.

Visibility - yes that is an interesting topic for discussion. I would not mind changing the formulas as they are simple, and I have the data to do it, but - it would be non-trivial to display your actual spotting area on the map. Here I opted for simplicity over realism. Distance x at least everyone understands "depends on many things" is not as easy to understand.

However, if you want to propose a general change for spotting distances, be my guest and make a good proposal, I just might adopt it.



Yes, the style of war is a major problem. I would like to introduce something into the game that can only be gained in battle, irrespective of victory or defeat, and is valuable to First Ones. But everything I can think of is so easily game-able that I won't even bother with details.

I've talked before that I'm unhappy with the diplomacy system. Maybe it needs replacement, but maybe my day only has 24 hours. But I would really like to have something like a targeted declaration.
Something like "realm X declares that it will conquer the following five regions, and therefore declares war upon realm y, which occupies them at this time". Or even "realm x declares it will raid the following three regions".
Again, it would be splendid if there would be some kind of reward for actually following through with this, but again that would be so trivial to game, it is laughable.

If anyone can fix this problem of "I just take 2 of my realms and make a fake war" for me, I can do miracles to improve the current system.


Foxglove

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2015, 03:35:23 PM »
Of course, it would never be Magvel vs Leyonia, because the moment Magvel would attack Mercia would join Leyonia's side. Which would draw in Hawks as an ally of Magvel, which would invariable cause the rest of the Grand Fate to join.

A one-on-one Magvel vs Layonia war could have been done in a way that might not have activated that particular alliance chain. Mercia is allied to equal degrees with both Magvel and Leyonia, and Aldric's daughter is also married to the King of Magvel's brother and they have several children. Had the King of Magvel spoken to Aldric at all before the attack he could have found out what it would have taken to sway Mercia not to intervene.

But the very nature of the war itself is now one that would naturally draw in the Grand Fate. Hawks and Magvel have clearly said they want all of Leyonia (at least), so it's not just a border skirmish over a few settlements. It's a war to take out an entire duchy. From the internal logic and motivations of the characters involved, there's no way that can't activate the alliance chains.
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WVH

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Re: World War 1: Hawks vs Grand Fate
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2015, 05:18:58 PM »
Any talk of one realm being too strong for the other and only that realm having fun is ridiculous.

For some reason people are adverse to asking for help from realms that are selling warriors.  There are a couple mercenary armies out there if I remember right, and the trade hub of Valenshallen has been trying to sell warriors for food for ever.  For example my Grand Fate trader character reported that he is there NOW and willing to barter on behalf of the Grand Fate... but is not given a reply.  I tried to sell a large army including all equipped entourage...including food, for one full circuit around the entire game world at one point.  People do not want to trade important resources for warriors, or at least not with me.

I say a warrior market would be cool.  Post warriors for sell and for how much, bidder can accept or offer another amount, seller can accept or counter.  Then let it calculate the time of travel from one to another and have them arrive on time.

I have fought and lost 5 or 6 good wars and had fun doing it.  The key to that fun was negotiation and an understanding that neither side wanted to kill off the other.  Instead it has always been negotiated boarders with the victor gaining land or submitting tribute or sovereignty to another.