Author Topic: Golden Hand Mercenary Company  (Read 4329 times)

Lann

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2015, 02:12:52 PM »
Yeah I like the idea of the GHC being able to ransom prisoners for gold.  Seems very mercenary-like. 


But yeah, read our points marthonman and give a response when you're ready.  I know we're picking at your contact but I actually DO want to see this group succeed.  The current contract has some very questionable aspects to it, but if we can come to an agreement here, I can guarantee you business, as a client with at least one of my most influential characters.  And I may even start up a character in the GHC as a mercenary, if the prospect looks attractive enough. 

De-Legro

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 03:45:56 AM »
The charter is flawed, you know what? Good. Contracts in real life are flawed, contracts in real life often attempt to screw one party. The fact that the contract favours the GHMC is only a problem if people don't like contention and conflict arising from imperfection and unfairness.
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Ratharing

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2015, 04:14:09 AM »
It's also an issue if nobody will sign it.

De-Legro

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2015, 04:22:48 AM »
It's also an issue if nobody will sign it.


people have :) Hawks have signed the first part in its entirety. The more warlike factions of Hawks have pledged their support to the second part. In general mercenary realms are small and chronically short of troops. Without significant protects, they simply don't last, as things like logistics and the tyranny of distance are simply no barrier in this game to realms that want to flatten them. Without significant safeguards, they are limited to only engaging in small conflicts where the realms involved are unlikely to seek retribution.
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Lann

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2015, 04:36:01 PM »

My point, De-Legro is not just that the contract is flawed.  It's entirely okay to draft a flawed contract for role-play reasons.  My point is that under the current stipulations, I see no characters in any factions I represent being remotely interested and I see the current contract limiting his business (his unwillingness to protect his identity's clients will REALLY limit what they're can do) as well as the players that would be interesting in being a mercenary in his group.  I assume this player wants to have a successful mercenary corp with a lot of business opportunity and a lot of interested players.  That's what we're talking about here. 

If the wording is not to the liking of other factions, they won't sign or participate, and that CAN be a problem.  Just because your Hawks will sign does not mean others will acknowledge the contract or the GHC's rights to their land.  You might end up his ONLY customer with the current format, and if that's the case, I fail to see why any faction that comes to blows with Hawks in the future shouldn't treat the GHC as an extension of their interests.  And if other players aren't feeling the contract, they won't be motivated to join the GHC. 

So we can discuss modification or the owner can leave it as is.  That's his choice, just as it's my choice to disagree and yours to agree.  But if he wants the business of certain influential characters, I would recommend revision-- as some of us could REALLY expand the GHC's interests globally. 

And speaking for myself, I certainly won't be starting a character in a realm where the gold pay-out is so dismal for mercenary work.  But again, if he's okay with that, that's entirely fine.  It's his faction to do with as he wants and that was never in question.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 04:58:06 PM by Lann »

Tweeznax

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 04:41:28 PM »
I signed the contract, RP'd it as my character simply not paying attention to the obvious iniquities, and moved on. However, I'm quite surprised this group isn't offering anonymity as a benefit of its work. Then again, I tried that with the Black Flag, and got fairly lacklustre response.

Ratharing

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 04:57:42 PM »
I signed the contract, RP'd it as my character simply not paying attention to the obvious iniquities, and moved on. However, I'm quite surprised this group isn't offering anonymity as a benefit of its work. Then again, I tried that with the Black Flag, and got fairly lacklustre response.

The only reason I have not hired the Black Flag is because the interested characters don't have the necessary contacts. Only my most righteous character does.

Lann

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2015, 04:59:27 PM »
I signed the contract, RP'd it as my character simply not paying attention to the obvious iniquities, and moved on. However, I'm quite surprised this group isn't offering anonymity as a benefit of its work. Then again, I tried that with the Black Flag, and got fairly lacklustre response.


Where is your Black Flag located?  I hadn't known of this faction so I plead ignorance.  If you're still operational, I'd like to see your contract as well.  Maybe you could make a separate topic.

De-Legro

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2015, 09:56:42 PM »
I signed the contract, RP'd it as my character simply not paying attention to the obvious iniquities, and moved on. However, I'm quite surprised this group isn't offering anonymity as a benefit of its work. Then again, I tried that with the Black Flag, and got fairly lacklustre response.


When you want your land to be safe, public contracts make sense. That way the REAL enemy is always known which limits the possible retaliation against your realm. It can also be a flavor thing, a mercenary company with slightly higher standards for example. Lets face it, the other mercenary style has now been attempted to my knowledge about seven times and each has died due to a lack of interest in their services. We are talking groups that had no protective charter, and would happily protect the identity of their employer. Perhaps the GHMC will share the same fate, but at least it is trying something different to the previous failures.



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Lann

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2015, 09:41:18 PM »


When you want your land to be safe, public contracts make sense. That way the REAL enemy is always known which limits the possible retaliation against your realm. It can also be a flavor thing, a mercenary company with slightly higher standards for example. Lets face it, the other mercenary style has now been attempted to my knowledge about seven times and each has died due to a lack of interest in their services. We are talking groups that had no protective charter, and would happily protect the identity of their employer. Perhaps the GHMC will share the same fate, but at least it is trying something different to the previous failures.

One of your arguments hints upon this idea that the service of protecting your employer's identity directly correlates to a mercenary group's eventual failure-- which I honestly find a massive stretch of logic.  I'm pretty sure there are always a multitude of reasons for those failures that have nothing to do with whether you protect your employer's identity or not.   And I can tell you, as someone who's hired discrete mercenaries regularly in the very recent past, their services were very much appreciated by myself at least. 

Also, there's nothing wrong with a public contract.  Indeed, there is some protection in it, possibly   IF everyone was willing to agree by it.  But when that contract includes a clause that says the identity of your employer will ALSO be public knowledge, well-- not every employer is going to be enthused with the idea of supplying that tidbit of information.  Which means you have fewer potential employers to hire you and you're saying no to a great deal of potential jobs.  And if a faction decides NOT to sign your contract specifically because their information will not be kept discrete, well then, they hold no obligation to keep your mercenary company's land safe either. 

Of course, that's fine depending on the culture and purpose of your organization.   Like you mentioned, some mercenary group may hold to a code of 'honor' or what not. It's really a matter of what you're looking for, and if all factions around you will honor that contract as it's drafted.  If they are, then it could be very profitable.  If they're not, it could be a problem.  I'm simply expressing what I'd like to see as a potential customer and member.  But in the end, it's up to the realm owner. 


Not said-- the whole 'discrete' vs 'public' thing isn't my only worry.  I personally have characters who could still see use in contracting the GHC if it wants everything public, even if those uses would be fewer than if the GHC offered to protect their employer's identities.  But the clause in there about the realms that sign being OBLIGATED to protect GHC land and punish violators...?  Yeah good luck getting anyone to agree to that, or keep their word if they do sign.  That's a lot to demand and I don't know very many who'd be willing to even do so for a group with such limited use.  But again, if you get people to agree upon it, then have fun.   Just keep in mind that this game doesn't have that many players as it is and if you get too picky, you might find it difficult to get a buyer.  As mentioned before, a lot of mercenary groups have failed, and I'd wager to believe a lot of that has to do with where and who they attempted to market to. 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 10:03:35 PM by Lann »

De-Legro

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2015, 10:52:33 PM »
One of your arguments hints upon this idea that the service of protecting your employer's identity directly correlates to a mercenary group's eventual failure-- which I honestly find a massive stretch of logic.  I'm pretty sure there are always a multitude of reasons for those failures that have nothing to do with whether you protect your employer's identity or not.   And I can tell you, as someone who's hired discrete mercenaries regularly in the very recent past, their services were very much appreciated by myself at least. 

Also, there's nothing wrong with a public contract.  Indeed, there is some protection in it, possibly   IF everyone was willing to agree by it.  But when that contract includes a clause that says the identity of your employer will ALSO be public knowledge, well-- not every employer is going to be enthused with the idea of supplying that tidbit of information.  Which means you have fewer potential employers to hire you and you're saying no to a great deal of potential jobs.  And if a faction decides NOT to sign your contract specifically because their information will not be kept discrete, well then, they hold no obligation to keep your mercenary company's land safe either. 

Of course, that's fine depending on the culture and purpose of your organization.   Like you mentioned, some mercenary group may hold to a code of 'honor' or what not. It's really a matter of what you're looking for, and if all factions around you will honor that contract as it's drafted.  If they are, then it could be very profitable.  If they're not, it could be a problem.  I'm simply expressing what I'd like to see as a potential customer and member.  But in the end, it's up to the realm owner. 


Not said-- the whole 'discrete' vs 'public' thing isn't my only worry.  I personally have characters who could still see use in contracting the GHC if it wants everything public, even if those uses would be fewer than if the GHC offered to protect their employer's identities.  But the clause in there about the realms that sign being OBLIGATED to protect GHC land and punish violators...?  Yeah good luck getting anyone to agree to that, or keep their word if they do sign.  That's a lot to demand and I don't know very many who'd be willing to even do so for a group with such limited use.  But again, if you get people to agree upon it, then have fun.   Just keep in mind that this game doesn't have that many players as it is and if you get too picky, you might find it difficult to get a buyer.  As mentioned before, a lot of mercenary groups have failed, and I'd wager to believe a lot of that has to do with where and who they attempted to market to.


You only need sign part one, which requires you not to attack them. You never need sign part 2 which obligates you to punish violators. Most identifiable mercenary groups that have failed, with the exception of the White Company got smashed after their first contract. Its that simple. When you engage in a conflict that your opponent believes you have no place in, they tend to come calling upon you. As Mercenary groups tend to be small they are hard pushed to defend against even a medium sized realm. There are a few groups that hide their affiliation, but they also have limited opportunity, as they by their nature don't widely advertise their existence.


The GHMC is going to rise and fall on people signing the second part. Get a few larger realms, or really even one of the largest realms signing that, and you have some measure of protection regardless of whom signs part 1 or not. From a IG perspective that is probably not that attractive, but perhaps there are those willing to do so simply to have a realm like GHMC exist and add to the world. Certainly I was willing to do so, but was not able to get the majority of Hawks on board.
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Lann

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2015, 07:55:19 PM »

You only need sign part one, which requires you not to attack them. You never need sign part 2 which obligates you to punish violators.


That wasn't made very clear in the contract, but thanks for the explanation. 


Quote
Most identifiable mercenary groups that have failed, with the exception of the White Company got smashed after their first contract. Its that simple. When you engage in a conflict that your opponent believes you have no place in, they tend to come calling upon you. As Mercenary groups tend to be small they are hard pushed to defend against even a medium sized realm.


...which has nothing to do with whether a mercenary outfit protected its employer's identity or not and everything to do with the fact that an outside group was meddling between two war opponents.  Such is life.  But that can happen even if you don't protect your employer.  It certainly won't save you from some of the realms I know.  Signing that contract also only offers protection for the company for as long as the mercenaries prove convenient.  The second they become a threat, they become a target, save for the most 'honorable' of signers. 


 
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There are a few groups that hide their affiliation, but they also have limited opportunity, as they by their nature don't widely advertise their existence.


And nothing says those that offer more discrete services can't advertise to gain business.   If they went belly-up because of limited opportunity, that's their fault. 

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The GHMC is going to rise and fall on people signing the second part.


Yeah good luck with that.  It's an unrealistic section that few will buy into as it obligates a faction to protect another realm that isn't loyal to them,  isn't an ally, and could very well be used against them-- and apparently they aren't required to so as you say, so... why the hell would they?  That's just poor diplomacy; and I dare say, you'd be acting very out-of-character by signing it, as the only motive is so that a mercenary group will always be present in the game.  From an in-character perspective, I can think of no reason any noble would do so, as it doesn't benefit them to sign.


Quote
Get a few larger realms, or really even one of the largest realms signing that, and you have some measure of protection regardless of whom signs part 1 or not.


Even IF you got a big realm to sign that second part, I'd wager that paper shield would still mean absolutely squat.  Exactly what realm leader is going to motivate his nobles to war-- in defense of an unaffiliated, disloyal non-ally?  Hell, playing devil's advocate here, if I wanted to go to war with such a faction that'd be willing to defend GHC assets, that's exactly how I'd go about it.  I'd attack the GHC and let that enemy faction tear itself apart politically as its nobles buck, protest, and disobey their leader's order to charge against my own when they have absolutely no motivation to do so.  And if a realm leader decided NOT to take the bait and go to war, because he'd realize doing so would be incredibly stupid, then he'd be breaking his diplomatic, SIGNED agreement; and I, as an enemy, could point to that failed obligation, that written contract, any time I wanted to discredit him on the political stage as being untrustworthy.   


I'm not saying I would do that, mind you.  For one, it depends on the character I'm playing and two, I was just filling the role of devil's advocate for the sake of argument. I like the idea of the GHC and would like a branch close by to some factions up where I do most of my play, as even a mercenary group with such an odd contract is better than nothing at all.  I'm just pointing out that no sane faction leader, that values his word, his self-interest, or the loyalty of his members, is going to sign that section and obligate his nobles to defend such a mercenary outfit.  Considering how hard it is to get people to fight even WHEN you do have a good reason to go to war, expecting them to charge into battle on behalf of the GHC with so little to gain is just laughable.  [/size]

If this group is to have its sovereignty protected, then it going to need to revise its contract or the services it offers to be more practical and/or worthy of that protection.  But I have never seen a successful contract where people are forced so blatantly to bet against their own self-interest.   It just won't work, no matter how much some might want it to.


Quote
From a IG perspective that is probably not that attractive, but perhaps there are those willing to do so simply to have a realm like GHMC exist and add to the world. Certainly I was willing to do so, but was not able to get the majority of Hawks on board.
[/size]



Case in point. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 08:09:31 PM by Lann »

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2015, 10:07:03 PM »
I'm one of the founding members of White Company here, and honestly I don't see what the huge uproar is over what the GHMC is doing.

They're independent; have a public contract, so you know what they're promising to provide, regardless of whether it's one-sided or not; and they already have realms publicly recognizing them.

Sorry if they aren't doing things the way you'd do them, but that's just tough. Honestly the high failure rate of mercenary realms just comes with the profession, rather than being necessarily from something wrong that they did.

marthonman

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2015, 02:48:11 AM »
nice to see you back. Things have changed a bit since I last posted here. Prices have been raised to 250 gold for 100 men (MI/LI/Archers) for 4 weeks any travel times to conflict area included for pay times.


Hawks and Arrekesh have signed part 1 of the contract and I'm working with the Archonian Dominate on signing a slightly amended version.


We also completed our first major contract for 1000 gp and with minimal losses.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Golden Hand Mercenary Company
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2015, 03:32:40 AM »
nice to see you back. Things have changed a bit since I last posted here. Prices have been raised to 250 gold for 100 men (MI/LI/Archers) for 4 weeks any travel times to conflict area included for pay times.


Hawks and Arrekesh have signed part 1 of the contract and I'm working with the Archonian Dominate on signing a slightly amended version.


We also completed our first major contract for 1000 gp and with minimal losses.

Put up a knight offer and I'll join you guys. :3