Author Topic: Equipment  (Read 13182 times)

De-Legro

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2015, 08:09:21 AM »
I've updated the balance now.

The combat system is not meant as a perfect simulation, but as an abstraction. On the level we simulate, tiny details would get lost anyway, so no point in coding them.

Some kind of limited rock-paper-scissors can be useful, I agree, making some weapons useful against certain other types. I might add this later. I would like to have a weapon or two that defeats shields, or horses, or heavy armour, for example.


Javelin are actually quite good in real life to foul up shields, the Romans in particular were known for that tactic. Pikes are the obvious choice against horses. Heavy armour is harder, pole arms and blunt impact weapons might fit the bill, and very powerful crossbows were developed in an escalation race against improving armour.
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Ratharing

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2015, 02:15:48 PM »
I've updated the balance now.

Could you rename the Pike to "Halberd", for accuracy with the description and image?

Some kind of limited rock-paper-scissors can be useful, I agree, making some weapons useful against certain other types. I might add this later. I would like to have a weapon or two that defeats shields, or horses, or heavy armour, for example.

Axe & Javelin (Pilum) > Shield.
Spear & Pike > Horses
Halberd & Bill/Guisarme > Rider.
Maces, Hammers & Picks > Heavy Armor.

Just some to keep in mind.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2015, 04:26:18 AM »

Javelin are actually quite good in real life to foul up shields, the Romans in particular were known for that tactic. Pikes are the obvious choice against horses. Heavy armour is harder, pole arms and blunt impact weapons might fit the bill, and very powerful crossbows were developed in an escalation race against improving armour.

It would make my masses of crossbowmen actually useful. :3

Huntsmaster

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2015, 05:05:52 AM »
I've updated the balance now.


Does this mean that my masses of pikes that I thought were better than spears are now in fact better than spears?

FARevolution

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2015, 05:21:20 AM »
Pikes has always been better than spears, which is now reflected in the game thanks to Tom's update.

Roran Hawkins

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2015, 10:57:16 AM »
Could you rename the Pike to "Halberd", for accuracy with the description and image?

Axe & Javelin (Pilum) > Shield.
Spear & Pike > Horses
Halberd & Bill/Guisarme > Rider.
Maces, Hammers & Picks > Heavy Armor.

Just some to keep in mind.
Javelins would do pretty awesome damage in general indeed.


Spears and pikes would indeed give you a bonus against horsemen, although I wish to add that the main effect of a cavalry charge is devastating morale of the defenders. Ideally a line of spearmen was already breaking before the xharge struck home. As such I'd say spearmen and pikemen to a lesser degree only receive a tangible anti-cavalry bonus at higher experience-levels, to display that they would be better-drilled,disciplined and would maintain formation in the face of such a charge.


Since I categorize halberds as specialized polearms under a pike, sure.


Maces, hammers, picks, and axes to a lesser degree are definitely good anti-armour weapons. However, they also come at a distinct disadvantage. Their short range make it harder to defend yourself while attacking the opponent adequately. It was for a reason that most maces etc were most often used by people dressed in adequate armour themselves, as that way they were largely immune to an opponent's glancing blows or even heavy blows, while their lunt or piercing weapon's strikes would strike with more effect than his opponent's sword for example. Troops using hammers, maces or picks should become vulnerable to high losses in melee if they don't have at least mail armour, and while not less lethal, their weapons are also less effective at rapidly incapacitating an unarmoured opponent compared to say a sword.
Summarized; better damage versus armour, slightly worse damage versus unarmoured, defence malus if the soldier isn't clad in decent armour himself, imo.



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Ratharing

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2015, 04:22:35 PM »
Thanks for fixing the pike/halberd issue, Tom!  :)

De-Legro

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2015, 12:50:29 AM »
Javelins would do pretty awesome damage in general indeed.


Spears and pikes would indeed give you a bonus against horsemen, although I wish to add that the main effect of a cavalry charge is devastating morale of the defenders. Ideally a line of spearmen was already breaking before the xharge struck home. As such I'd say spearmen and pikemen to a lesser degree only receive a tangible anti-cavalry bonus at higher experience-levels, to display that they would be better-drilled,disciplined and would maintain formation in the face of such a charge.


Since I categorize halberds as specialized polearms under a pike, sure.


Maces, hammers, picks, and axes to a lesser degree are definitely good anti-armour weapons. However, they also come at a distinct disadvantage. Their short range make it harder to defend yourself while attacking the opponent adequately. It was for a reason that most maces etc were most often used by people dressed in adequate armour themselves, as that way they were largely immune to an opponent's glancing blows or even heavy blows, while their lunt or piercing weapon's strikes would strike with more effect than his opponent's sword for example. Troops using hammers, maces or picks should become vulnerable to high losses in melee if they don't have at least mail armour, and while not less lethal, their weapons are also less effective at rapidly incapacitating an unarmoured opponent compared to say a sword.
Summarized; better damage versus armour, slightly worse damage versus unarmoured, defence malus if the soldier isn't clad in decent armour himself, imo.


Spears are likely too short to give a real advantage against cav.
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Roran Hawkins

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2015, 01:39:42 AM »

Spears are likely too short to give a real advantage against cav.


There is nowhere defined what the length of the spears in this game are. In either case, a closed infantry formation with spears will resist a cavalry charge better than one with axes or swords. I remember a nice read on the effect of cavalry charges and casualties on the charging and receiving side, and usually the knights suffered not insignificant casualties aswell when they frontall charged a formation that did not waver or break up before the charge struck home.
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De-Legro

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2015, 01:41:24 AM »

There is nowhere defined what the length of the spears in this game are. In either case, a closed infantry formation with spears will resist a cavalry charge better than one with axes or swords. I remember a nice read on the effect of cavalry charges and casualties on the charging and receiving side, and usually the knights suffered not insignificant casualties aswell when they frontall charged a formation that did not waver or break up before the charge struck home.


Actually, a good shield wall will stop most cav charges. Horses do not like to charge towards a solid barrier and will shy from them.
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Roran Hawkins

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2015, 01:50:11 AM »

Actually, a good shield wall will stop most cav charges. Horses do not like to charge towards a solid barrier and will shy from them.


That's been disproven aswell. A cavalry charge gets a herd mentality that will just crush straight over obstacles.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2015, 01:58:59 AM »

That's been disproven aswell. A cavalry charge gets a herd mentality that will just crush straight over obstacles.

Proof please.

De-Legro

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2015, 02:10:51 AM »

That's been disproven aswell. A cavalry charge gets a herd mentality that will just crush straight over obstacles.


In the battle of Hasting the Norman cavalry was unable to penetrate the shield war many times. There is a reason that the heavy cavalry charge was reserved and used when the enemy started to waver.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2015, 03:35:16 AM »

That's been disproven aswell. A cavalry charge gets a herd mentality that will just crush straight over obstacles.

Except every stampede of horses I've ever seen has them going around obstacles rather than through them. You know, because getting an injury is pretty much a death sentence for a wild animal, especially horses.

Tweeznax

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Re: Equipment
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2015, 04:04:13 AM »
Put blinders on the horses and set their tails on fire. You will get through the shield wall. Best to have spare horses on hand!  ;D