Author Topic: So whats happening?  (Read 5455 times)

De-Legro

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2015, 01:42:16 AM »
"Having spoken to several new players in Valinor, that is not the impression they have. They believe the Van Valen family will call upon the established members of the realm to destroy any who threaten to rock the warhorse boat. Those orders might not come directly from you, but someone in Valinor is spreading this feeling, and right now these players are looking for other places to play. Not only that they are talking to others both in the game and OOC in places like IRC and damaging the reputation of Valinor and the North in general."
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Well, that sucks.  Not my problem that they are assuming things and not coming to me about their complaints.  I have no in game way of knowing exactly what my vassals are demanding from their vassals.

However I question two things.  1. the number of players you have talked to about this (I am guessing 3) and 2. If they are all new players or friends/BM buddies.

I do not question your honesty in this, but I would like to know how many "several" are.  I do know of a few players who have directly tried to cause strife between Valinor and other nations but they did not make their case strong enough to sway anyone to their side.
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"More then one new player in the North has even stated that there is a unspoken agreement between the large Northern realms to prevent any rebellion or independence, not that they think they have a chance, as the metal supply in the north is regarded as being hoarded by the founding families. All these might be unfair accusations, but they are out there, being spread by those whom have just joined the game and selected the North as the place to play."

Bullshit.  I assume it is the same players mentioned before.  Again, I do not know what my vassals ask of their vassals... but I do know that I have provided seriously HUNDREDS of warriors to each of the families that has joined Valinor.  Painfully handing them out by cellphone in some cases.

Even now with the raids pending... I have been handing out warriors to anyone who will come to Valenshallen to leave for the raids...to make sure they each have 100 when setting out...including most of the whopping 60ish warhorses that have been trained.  So again they are feeding you bullshit.
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"Is this truth, I can't say. But there are certainly new players in the east who believe that to be the case, and whom are close to deciding that this game is simply one more ego trip for those who were lucky enough to start early in the game"

Who ever it is, they are not being fully honest.  No one has come to me IC or OOC with any complaints.  That to me means they are refusing to play the game with us... If they come to me with complaints I would have already addressed them.

100% serious here.  I have sent messages telling everyone to follow only the strong and to break oaths freely... but expect war.  Ya war, they will get attacked by what ever level it is they are breaking.  I will not help a duke take back a barrony from another duke... but from NorthSpear? yep.  Because I am strong, must show that I am stronger and not look weak by other settlements leaving the realm for another they see as stronger.

Thats the culture and thats the game.  They can play it or move away because 1. I do not like shit ass drama. 2. they could come to me and help me know there is a problem 3. This is chess not checkers... they need to use their head and figure something out.

As much as I try to support new players and old ones including some where were leaving but stuck around for me, I will not bend my RP or culture because of he said she said in IRC... they can nut-up and talk to me or buzz off.

Sorry for the bad quotes here.  Messed them up and out of time.


I don't actually have anyone from BM, these are just players that turn up on IRC to vent. They are hardly going to come to your or your characters when so far as they are concerned you represent a large part of the problem. I have not played personally in the North for months, but at a guess what is occurring is the IG and IC posturing that was always prevalent up there is simply at the point where if you have not played their for months and are well versed in the OCC aspects, seems like the strong basically telling people to put up and shut up. This was always going to be a potential problem with the culture, because it is hard to play IC while still OOC being inclusive to those that are new or for whatever other reason have not been in the position to be "strong"


The most common criticism of the Valinor is that the tribute demands are crippling. That is probably a relative thing, compared to realms like Hawks and Elysium you guys are demanding more then four times the food in tribute.
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Calistarius

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 03:24:30 AM »

I don't actually have anyone from BM, these are just players that turn up on IRC to vent. They are hardly going to come to your or your characters when so far as they are concerned you represent a large part of the problem. I have not played personally in the North for months, but at a guess what is occurring is the IG and IC posturing that was always prevalent up there is simply at the point where if you have not played their for months and are well versed in the OCC aspects, seems like the strong basically telling people to put up and shut up. This was always going to be a potential problem with the culture, because it is hard to play IC while still OOC being inclusive to those that are new or for whatever other reason have not been in the position to be "strong"


The most common criticism of the Valinor is that the tribute demands are crippling. That is probably a relative thing, compared to realms like Hawks and Elysium you guys are demanding more then four times the food in tribute.


Tribute in Valinor is very high, and it takes an entire kingdom to produce warhorses and plate. If these people dislike the tribute they dont have to give it, but they risk being on the bad side of the king and the other nobles ic'ly. Things in the north are not easy, and war is brutal. I have just finished rebuilding my forces, so that we could sail and raid with a usable army. I am not a new noble, but I am not an old one either. I have grown a fairly large estate, given the opportunity, but it was not easy. I have had several fueds with some nobles, and now have several vassals. This is a long term game, and requires patience. I am certain many of these new players are struggling with this reality, as many others have.

De-Legro

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 04:04:05 AM »
How can new players, with new estates and little production capacity risk not paying tribute? Yet the tribute in itself prevents them from building up to the point where a rebellion has any chance of success? I bring this up because the current impression is the North is not new player friendly. This idea that new players must struggle to get their own reasonable holding is simply not existent elsewhere. EI as always has plenty of land to give away to new players, Grand Fate as recently created an entire realm for new players and most the Core realms try to ensure new players all get six or more regions when they start. If you realm falls into then situation where it starts to fail to attract and retain new players, then will having war horses mean much?

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Calistarius

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2015, 06:05:28 AM »
How can new players, with new estates and little production capacity risk not paying tribute? Yet the tribute in itself prevents them from building up to the point where a rebellion has any chance of success? I bring this up because the current impression is the North is not new player friendly. This idea that new players must struggle to get their own reasonable holding is simply not existent elsewhere. EI as always has plenty of land to give away to new players, Grand Fate as recently created an entire realm for new players and most the Core realms try to ensure new players all get six or more regions when they start. If you realm falls into then situation where it starts to fail to attract and retain new players, then will having war horses mean much?


My family alone produces at least a 3rd of all the food tribute to the capital, with 8 estates, mostly grassland and thin grassland to be fair, but even with that, I managed to produce a massive army, on the scale of the king of Valinors, I am sure if my nobles were not so loyal, he might even be sweat on his brow over it. Even from being a new player, with 4 estates, I tributed all I could, so that the realm could grow, I asked my fellows to tribute, and build forces so that we could raid, and be the strongest in the north. I managed to succeed under these same circumstances, of which all other nobles, and even my vassals are asked with valinor. War horses do mean quite a bit, especially considering the player count of the realm. We worked as a country, to produce something no other kingdom can, and you ask me to be ashamed of it? Perhaps some of these new players will whine and complain and move to more pampered player groups in the south, but if we are to nurture a culture of strength in the north, and raid, this is what must happen, and valen helped me to see this.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2015, 07:46:44 AM »

My family alone produces at least a 3rd of all the food tribute to the capital, with 8 estates, mostly grassland and thin grassland to be fair, but even with that, I managed to produce a massive army, on the scale of the king of Valinors, I am sure if my nobles were not so loyal, he might even be sweat on his brow over it. Even from being a new player, with 4 estates, I tributed all I could, so that the realm could grow, I asked my fellows to tribute, and build forces so that we could raid, and be the strongest in the north. I managed to succeed under these same circumstances, of which all other nobles, and even my vassals are asked with valinor. War horses do mean quite a bit, especially considering the player count of the realm. We worked as a country, to produce something no other kingdom can, and you ask me to be ashamed of it? Perhaps some of these new players will whine and complain and move to more pampered player groups in the south, but if we are to nurture a culture of strength in the north, and raid, this is what must happen, and valen helped me to see this.

I love how conceited you are. You talk about pampered, and yet still fail to realize that most of the conflict in the game is going on in the south, while the north just stagnates. By the way, the North was never meant to be united, the game is balanced in such a way that a united, strong north would be completely overpowering thanks to the guided start. It doesn't take much to enforce unity when the leading players have armies in the thousands while everyone else is lucky to have over 100 decent troops. I especially love it when entrenched players start bashing the newer ones for "whining" or being inferior in some way. Really shows when a playerbase is starting to become too arrogant.

Zandar

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2015, 09:08:20 AM »

My family alone produces at least a 3rd of all the food tribute to the capital, with 8 estates, mostly grassland and thin grassland to be fair, but even with that, I managed to produce a massive army, on the scale of the king of Valinors, I am sure if my nobles were not so loyal, he might even be sweat on his brow over it. Even from being a new player, with 4 estates, I tributed all I could, so that the realm could grow, I asked my fellows to tribute, and build forces so that we could raid, and be the strongest in the north. I managed to succeed under these same circumstances, of which all other nobles, and even my vassals are asked with valinor. War horses do mean quite a bit, especially considering the player count of the realm. We worked as a country, to produce something no other kingdom can, and you ask me to be ashamed of it? Perhaps some of these new players will whine and complain and move to more pampered player groups in the south, but if we are to nurture a culture of strength in the north, and raid, this is what must happen, and valen helped me to see this.

I played in the North since the guided start, among many of the realms. The North has always failed to be what it first claimed. Firstly the concept of strength is so narrowly interpreted that it pretty much always ends up being institutionalised bulling. The North allows for overwhelming numbers to be viewed of as strength, Valast is the ONLY player I have ever witnessed trying to buck this trend, for the rest so long as you win then you were stronger. That is obviously a terrible culture for player retention, in a game that is already struggling with retention. Let us be honest, if the Dev was anyone other then Tom, this game would likely already be shut down because it fails to even come close to player number goals.

Secondly there was never really any independence in the North. Sure we had clans but they quickly formed power blocks and modern nationalism prevailed. This is evident in your own post. You have an army as strong as your king, yet your characters are weak, for even when they have strength they choose to be subordinate, for the "good of the realm". The very concept of good for the realm should never exist in the North, it demands the strong to bend their knee and pretend to weakness. No the OOC goals and ambitions of players meant the North, while interesting, can never claim to have succeed in fulfilling its design. Better to just accept that it is a tribal based oligarchy and move on then continuing with a charade of strong independent clans battling each other for dominance.

Alumaani

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2015, 09:09:21 AM »
Valinor...im convinced by your comments and although our characters fought in the past, will you accept me into your realm?  If so I will play again and you can dictate the number of characters you want to play within it just let me know.  We would of course need to RP something.

Roran Hawkins

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2015, 11:44:32 AM »
I played in the North since the guided start, among many of the realms. The North has always failed to be what it first claimed. Firstly the concept of strength is so narrowly interpreted that it pretty much always ends up being institutionalised bulling. The North allows for overwhelming numbers to be viewed of as strength, Valast is the ONLY player I have ever witnessed trying to buck this trend, for the rest so long as you win then you were stronger. That is obviously a terrible culture for player retention, in a game that is already struggling with retention. Let us be honest, if the Dev was anyone other then Tom, this game would likely already be shut down because it fails to even come close to player number goals.

Secondly there was never really any independence in the North. Sure we had clans but they quickly formed power blocks and modern nationalism prevailed. This is evident in your own post. You have an army as strong as your king, yet your characters are weak, for even when they have strength they choose to be subordinate, for the "good of the realm". The very concept of good for the realm should never exist in the North, it demands the strong to bend their knee and pretend to weakness. No the OOC goals and ambitions of players meant the North, while interesting, can never claim to have succeed in fulfilling its design. Better to just accept that it is a tribal based oligarchy and move on then continuing with a charade of strong independent clans battling each other for dominance.


This is exactly what I was trying to say. The players in the North are OOC'ly defending their cases for the wrong purposes. They believe they are doing what is right while IC'ly they are not benefitting the game at all.
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Andrew

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2015, 11:48:54 AM »
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

The major powers in this game, need to sit down with each other and the dev team, and start making decisions that are in the best interest of the game. Every major war, political action, diplomatic agreement, should be reviewed as a group before being allowed to happen. The devs should have the ability to flat out veto any idea that is deemed harmful to the game.

Those in charge of major powers have a duty to not just themselves, but other players, newer players, and even the dev team, to make Might & Fealty as enjoyable as possible in it's current state.

And yes, this would mean that there will be times that what is decided goes blatantly against what makes sense in character. Because right now, if you can't set aside some of your personal enjoyment for what helps make this a better game, you're not mature enough to be running one of the major powers.

Does anyone here disagree with me?
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Tan dSerrai

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2015, 01:24:48 PM »
Oh, I'd be perfectly alright with having my actions 'peer reviewed'. No trouble at all.

However, as this is done here - uhm...nope? There has been _massive_ criticism, including insults by players who have no characters in the north, who do not know the situation - but go flat out accusing others of...well, I'd rather not repeat it. 'Dickheaded' being just one example.....guys, what do you want to achieve with this level of acerbity? Anything constructive? Sorry, but going at it like this you'll only be disregarded and thought to be a jerk.

I'll add some thoughts later - but I would ask that especially the hostile tone is damped DOWN. Constructive criticism? Aye, any time. Hate, scorn, insults - uhm...no? Secondly: I speak only for the d'Serrai. I currently have a total of 7 vassals. Go ask them how they feel to be treated. Again, go obtain a bit more information before stomping on someone....and that especially applies to Valast. He has done more than anyone else in the north to get things going, to hand away power, to keep vassals active. Guys, declaring him whatever you are declaring him to be....is flat out wrong.

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2015, 01:48:54 PM »
The major powers in this game, need to sit down with each other and the dev team, and start making decisions that are in the best interest of the game. Every major war, political action, diplomatic agreement, should be reviewed as a group before being allowed to happen. The devs should have the ability to flat out veto any idea that is deemed harmful to the game.

I think you are right.

Let's open a new topic and discuss what defines a "major power" and how many about there should be on this "meta council".

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2015, 01:53:15 PM »
Oh, I'd be perfectly alright with having my actions 'peer reviewed'. No trouble at all.

However, as this is done here - uhm...nope? There has been _massive_ criticism, including insults by players who have no characters in the north, who do not know the situation - but go flat out accusing others of...well, I'd rather not repeat it. 'Dickheaded' being just one example.....guys, what do you want to achieve with this level of acerbity? Anything constructive? Sorry, but going at it like this you'll only be disregarded and thought to be a jerk.

I'll add some thoughts later - but I would ask that especially the hostile tone is damped DOWN. Constructive criticism? Aye, any time. Hate, scorn, insults - uhm...no? Secondly: I speak only for the d'Serrai. I currently have a total of 7 vassals. Go ask them how they feel to be treated. Again, go obtain a bit more information before stomping on someone....and that especially applies to Valast. He has done more than anyone else in the north to get things going, to hand away power, to keep vassals active. Guys, declaring him whatever you are declaring him to be....is flat out wrong.

I play in the North, I have always played in the North and I play in most the realms in the North. The Players in the North are not malicious, but too many of the rulers simply have tunnel vision. Just as it took a massive up swelling on the Forum in the early days to convince Rathgar that their attack upon EI was harmful to the game, still I see the North do what is obviously in character for them, but not really all that good for the health of the game. That is not the case in so many other places, were the concepts and cultures people worked hard on are routinely disregarded and even thrown away in the interest of the game. My experance in the North is that if you don't have some OOC knowledge about people intent, then it is very easy from the way characters act to get the impression that rebellion will be meet with overwhelming force, that attacks from the south will be meet with overwhelming force, that the predominant ethos in the North is to win, win always and prove your strength.

We can rail against that judgment by others all we want, but it will take more then OOC assurances to convince the general player base, remembering that for most game the forum population is 10% of the players if you are lucky. As Tom mentioned back when he forced us to split up Rathgar, the only thing that repairs reputations is concrete action, and what other players are trying to tell us is the actions we think we have taken to are either not visible, or do not actually demonstrate what we wish. It is time for us to stop with the defense of, but I do so much for my vassals, and start to think, how does the other 90% of the player base view me and what have I done to either deserve that or remedy it.

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2015, 04:24:25 PM »
For months I held all of Valinor (not including the new East) my self.  Every time a player would join, I would give them as many settlements as I could reasonably.  Then I would go back and recollect them myself when those players dropped out.  Only to do the exact same thing again with the next players.

I have given near 2000 warriors to new players sense the east opened, maybe even more.  So that assumed new players could go and take settlements.

I have focused on limited wars and had valinor fight in two of them...one designed JUST so the new players would have things to do and learn the game in the hope that more of them would stay active because of the action.

Even the warhorses (that I am being slighted for having) only trained about 60 and already given about 20 to the new players in the last few days.  Along with more warriors to help round out each of their armies to 100 plus or minus a hand full.

I have given credits to a new player because he helped create wiki content.

I have helped two long term players stay in the game instead of quitting, by offering them parts of Valinor.

I have done this and more.  And now I am being told it is not enough.  That I should not play the game at all from my characters point of view but instead be a NPC at the mercy of a peer review council?

And all this comes from a few people who went ooc about ic issues that they were too chicken to do in game even ooc to me.  You can not please everyone.  I refuse to try.  If some one does not like it in Valinor they can leave.  I promise you the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence... and they will not find the same welcome in most other realms.

But according to a few here, I should change everything I do because someone went said something on IRC to other people.

The entire conversation is so frustrating to me and so demoralizing.

Tan dSerrai

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2015, 05:00:06 PM »

First - especially if you have not played in the north for months - I invite you to create a character there, _then_ evaluate. Especially before you accuse anyone of 'circle-jerking' being 'powerhungry',  to 'criminalize'.....wow. Do you really think the game gains by pouring such...thats not even criticism....don't know what to call it....over other players? If there are any constructive criticisms - any time. Simple insults....are less welcome.



2 Points:

One:

Valast has put a lot of effort into raiding, an active culture, into trying to get something going. He has handed away most of his lands, encourages his vassals. If you really want to point at _him_ as an example for centralized, play-to-win, all-me all-me attitude....boy, did you pick the wrong one as target. I cannot even tell you how wrong....and to be honest, this pisses me off even more than whatever portions of that are aimed my way.

Now: In the past months, Valast and me have: handed I-don't know how many warriors to new players. A heck of a number of estates. We did coordinate ooc to offer the new players an arena where they could fight, defend what is theirs, take some of others - WHILE ensuring that noone got trampled, that the big guns stay out of it. It was quite an effort and I think it was worth it. Out of 15 or so vassals that joined me there are 6 still here, active, building something of their own (one is building a council for younger players for both d'Serrai and Valinor nobles - and one of my chars is helping him plot against Tan - show me someone with a considerable higher retention rate and I'll gladly listen to any advice.

Within the Serrai there is also a new custom allowing raiding and taking of estates by force within the clan - the first estate has changed owners and I hope to see more. Lets see.

So - to the 'I only perceive it from the outside, I have not played in the north' critics using those nice, friendly adjectives while not offering anything constructive: nope, not helping at all. Mostly just disqualifying yourself. Still, maybe _something_ will come of this - but not the way you go about it.


Two:

@Roran: Regarding Fearia: oh boy.

Let me tell you what really happened: With the opening of the east, I sought new vassals. Over time, around 15 were set up with estates and warriors, 6 are still around....which I consider pretty good retention. Then Valast and I did ooc ochestrate a war/raiding system allowing the new players to fight each other for territory, supplying them with resources and warriors, keeping mostly out of the fight ourselves. It was a lot of work but I think it worked really well - but thats just me. We had several battles, estates changing hands back and forth, vassals being taken prisoner and freed, RP...... Now: all d'Serrai vassals are free to do as they please, with two exceptions: If they attack or raid they need to inform Tan first - and 'if the shieldwall is called, they must follow'. That is explained to everyone who joins.

Now, details: the raid system did state to use no more than 35 warriors per noble. I did try to get all vassals into the fight - (as in 'try', not 'force'), giving them experience in fighting, contacts with their fellow nobles and with Valinor nobles. Fearia did ignore all summons - no trouble, he is a new player, let him do as he pleases - for a considerable time. At a time after being defeated by Valinor three of four times (I loved it! And, to point out a detail, Valast did contact me ooc, asking if all his nobles played by the rules...he thought they were suspiciously effective. I ensured him that all was fine and that both my nobles and me were having a blast.) Now Tan asked Fearia to send _one_ of their two nobles to the fight, not even having to bring warriors - they would be provided. Fearia told Tan to get stuffed. Tan asked again, 'calling the shieldwall'. Fearia refused. Tan expained once more about the shieldwall and that if Fearia refuses he would consider that oathbreaking. Fearia told Tan to get stuffed, that he would join Valinor, that he could do as he pleased as the d'Serrai could not fight two wars at the same time. Tan _again_ explained that this would be considered oathbreaking, practically begged Fearia to only send one of two nobles, nothing more. (And no, not a shred of tribute was asked)

Fearia did then - without any further word - declare independence.

Now tell me, what should Tan (or anyone) do at that point? Heck, at _some_ time people are responsible for their actions. Explaining stuff to them IC and OOC, giving them time and resources, asking nothing, explaining stuff again, helping them - well, if someone insists on telling his liege to get stuffed again and again, you should expect a violent reaction. So yes, after declaring independence, Fearia was crushed.

So, Roran, please tell me: Do my actions really warrant the accusation of 'dickheading' a player? If you are worried about the treatment of a player....why not simply ASK me? This could have easily be explained - but I DO NOT APPRECIATE being accused of dickheading someone on the forum.....RIGHT? Do I get through? Thank you.

------------

That having said, I once again state that I'll happily work on changing the north - if there is a good idea on what to do and how to go about it. I will also cheerfully consider any further purely negative comments as irrelevant and damaging to the integrity of the one who makes them. Thank you for listening.

Valast

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Re: So whats happening?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2015, 05:32:21 PM »
Alumaani, I would totally love for you to join the realm.  I have a number of estates that I can hand over to you... near the North Spear boarder (yikes I can see where this will go)  Or even in the Northern part.

You can bring as many characters as you would like of course.  I do not want to limit your game play or roll play.

AND I fully expect you to stir the pot.  We have had a couple internal conflicts, one that I IC had to step in to prevent all out civil war (it was escalating too quickly and drawing in all the realm, so...I did kingly stuff)

It could even be Belmont (spelled right?) that comes... it would be a sign of strength to have him become a vassal.  And a sign of humility to him for having lost much of his families power and wealth.  I realize that is a work around for the slumberblight you went through but it makes sense culturally.

Anyway, as always you and anyone are welcome.