Author Topic: Elysium  (Read 8326 times)

Gustav Kuriga

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Elysium
« on: February 17, 2015, 05:43:49 PM »
Basically a kingdom in and of itself that evolved from Linthain Plains and seceded from Ariamis, didn't see a realm thread for it and wanted to create one. It seems to be one of the more active realms, though it may have quieted down after the initial forming of the realm.

Zandar

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 02:23:32 AM »
Since there is so much fun happeining with Erstes Imperium and comments about gang bangs, I feel it is time to be completely clear about Elysiums position.

We informed the Empress from the outset that our only goal is to defend existing Ryne settlements. Elysium will not engage the Imperium except in the context of defending regions. We will not attack Imperium regions, we will not loot Imperium regions, we will not chase Imperium troops unless they are heading towards Ryne territory.

This is despite the Empresses best attempts to anger my character. For those wondering why EI ends up in such trouble, look to an Empress that constantly overstates the military ability of the realm. Orion is well known for engaging in pissing contests, basically if you push him to demonstrate Elysiums military, he will by stomping all over your face. Having a Ruler from another realm try to imply that Elysium was "lucky" not to have faced the EI military in their last little stoush and otherwise insult the focus of our realm (war is what we do, it is all that we do) was a massive slap in the face, and the ONLY reason I didn't just order the realm to triple the troops sent and see how much of EI we could conquer before running out of steam was that due to the fact that we are only in this war due to the marriage of my characters and Rynes Queen. EI started this war knowing that Elysium would likely join, and expecting Eldamar would due to family ties there. It is rich to complain after the fact when you saw it coming and still went ahead.

Lann

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 02:32:33 PM »
Well that escalated quickly.... Why are we speaking about the Erstes/ Elysium conflict here?  Furthermore, there's a lot of OOC bitterness I think is unwarranted.


You have to understand the Imperium's position.  We had a vassal (Octavius Tarquinian) that basically took control of a bunch of Empire-owned estates and then flipped them under Ryne's allegiance with the most flimsy excuse ever.  What he did amounted to theft and treachery.  He stole... our territory.  You can't expect the Empire to just sit there and take that.  We sent word to Ryne requesting that we be allowed to retrieve our estates and take care of the traitor without their or their allies interference.  Instead, Ryne dug in its heals, defended the person who betrayed us, claimed all those estates as their own, and then you joined in on their side. 

And by the way, that's fine.  This game is about conflict and politics, so it's great that this has caused some controversy in-character, even if the timing is absolutely abysmal so far for us.  It's perfectly okay for nobility to seize opportunities and take advantage of situations like this.   But don't sit there and try to play the victim out-of-character or attack the player behind the Empress in some forum thread (of which has nothing to do with the current conflict so I can't help but think you're FISHING for an excuse to troll), because she was VERY close to quitting due to all this OOC mud-slinging.  What Ryne did by protecting a known traitor and taking all of those estates was a much bigger slap in the face to the Empire than any insult you 'suffered' and was bound to cause things to spiral out of control diplomatically. Elysium taking their side wasn't going to put you in EI favor and its naive for you to pretend that it would when you're basically defending an invader. 

Imagine this situation in reverse.  Would you be okay with the idea of one of your vassals defecting a large portion of estates to Ryne and then when you try to petition them so you can deal with the vassal and take those regions back without external interference, you get denied, threatened, and insulted?  You then attempt to retake said estates and wind up with all of Ryne's allies (lets say EI is one for example purposes) suddenly declaring war on you?  No, of course you wouldn't be fine with that.

On a related note, let me just say-- well played Ryne and Elysium.  You screwed us in the EI but it was a damned awesome move and very cleverly played out.  I'll be the first to congratulate you for playing your card, or 'the game' if we want to get Ice and Fire-like, so well.  I don't understand why you feel the need to take this personally or try to attack someone OOC but in-game it was a masterfully conducted political move and I admire you for playing it the way you did.  Congratulations to Octavius too!  What you did took some massive balls and it payed off in dividends for you.  My Imperial character will want to place your head on a pike if he ever gets the chance but excellent move, sir.  THIS is what I joined Might and Fealty for.   
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 02:56:55 PM by Lann »

Zandar

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 03:22:13 PM »
Well that escalated quickly.... Why are we speaking about the Erstes/ Elysium conflict here?  Furthermore, there's a lot of OOC bitterness I think is unwarranted.


You have to understand the Imperium's position.  We had a vassal (Octavius Tarquinian) that basically took control of a bunch of Empire-owned estates and then flipped them under Ryne's allegiance with the most flimsy excuse ever.  What he did amounted to theft and treachery.  He stole... our territory.  You can't expect the Empire to just sit there and take that.  We sent word to Ryne requesting that we be allowed to retrieve our estates and take care of the traitor without their or their allies interference.  Instead, Ryne dug in its heals, defended the person who betrayed us, claimed all those estates as their own, and then you joined in on their side. 

And by the way, that's fine.  This game is about conflict and politics, so it's great that this has caused some controversy in-character, even if the timing is absolutely abysmal so far for us.  It's perfectly okay for nobility to seize opportunities and take advantage of situations like this.   But don't sit there and try to play the victim out-of-character or attack the player behind the Empress in some forum thread (of which has nothing to do with the current conflict so I can't help but think you're FISHING for an excuse to troll), because she was VERY close to quitting due to all this OOC mud-slinging.  What Ryne did by protecting a known traitor and taking all of those estates was a much bigger slap in the face to the Empire than any insult you 'suffered' and was bound to cause things to spiral out of control diplomatically. Elysium taking their side wasn't going to put you in EI favor and its naive for you to pretend that it would when you're basically defending an invader. 

Imagine this situation in reverse.  Would you be okay with the idea of one of your vassals defecting a large portion of estates to Ryne and then when you try to petition them so you can deal with the vassal and take those regions back without external interference, you get denied, threatened, and insulted?  You then attempt to retake said estates and wind up with all of Ryne's allies (lets say EI is one for example purposes) suddenly declaring war on you?  No, of course you wouldn't be fine with that.

On a related note, let me just say-- well played Ryne and Elysium.  You screwed us in the EI but it was a damned awesome move and very cleverly played out.  I'll be the first to congratulate you for playing your card, or 'the game' if we want to get Ice and Fire-like, so well.  I don't understand why you feel the need to take this personally or try to attack someone OOC but in-game it was a masterfully conducted political move and I admire you for playing it the way you did.  Congratulations to Octavius too!  What you did took some massive balls and it payed off in dividends for you.  My Imperial character will want to place your head on a pike if he ever gets the chance but excellent move, sir.  THIS is what I joined Might and Fealty for.   

No, I don't have to understand their position, frankly I haven't even bothered to ask. It is simple, my Wife and My ally asked for help. I don't particularly as a character care about the specifics, I don't even care if she is in the right or not. But if we want to go all IC, Elysium views land as the belonging to the Lord above all else. No Lord in Elysium must live in fear of retaliation from us should they go their own way so long as they held true to their oath and duties while a member of Elysium. So no, as Ruler of Elysium I don't particularly view EI's claims as having any merit. Others of my characters would feel differently, but don't make the mistake of assuming that the course of action you have taken is going to be universally viewed as the appropriate one, or even a valid one.

Everything I posted previously was in character. The empress IC pissed of my character, not me. Orion is a hot headed oaf, one of his few concerns in life is proving his army is superior to all others, including the other Kings of Elysium. I didn't particularly want to be involved in this war, I even toyed with the idea of refusing to send aid to Ryne, but that frankly simply didn't work with the way Orion and his wife have RP'd so far.

IC I also don't give two flying hoots about being in EI's favour. There are currently 5 realms that Orion has any respect for. By the end of this war perhaps EI will make the 6th on the list, we shall see should there ever be any battles between Elysium and EI.

As to why speak about the Elysium/EI conflict here. It the Elysium thread, it makes sense to talk about things concerning Elysium and Elysiums view of the world in its own thread.

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 03:55:44 PM »
I wonder who the first 5 realms on that list are.
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Calpurnius

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 04:34:25 PM »
Please may I try and say again. My comments have nothing to do with Octavius, Ryne, Eldamar, or Elysium. They are only mentioned as background for my anger from comments by another person.  It is hard to ignore continued comments made in forum to sway opinions for in game events. Did anyone read any comments about the war before Roran made his comment in the forum ?

I encourage people to look back one year ago in the beginning of the Ascalon thread.  Notice  the interpretation of  those comments by others.  Why is it so hard to understand that bringing comments to the forum to persuade in game opinions is misleading and harmful. Add to the fact, that current actions are opposite of past comments. Notice the comment hoping others will stay out and the mention of Rathgar. 

This is what my complaint is about.  If the forum was to be part of the ongoing events in game, them please incorporate it into the game itself so more people can be aware and use it.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 05:02:51 PM by Calpurnius »

Roran Hawkins

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 05:13:43 PM »
I wonder who the first 5 realms on that list are.
I'm guessing at least Ryne, maybe even Dragonhaven but I'm not convinced of that at all. Who else have they fought recently?
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Lann

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 10:51:09 PM »
No, I don't have to understand their position, frankly I haven't even bothered to ask. It is simple, my Wife and My ally asked for help. I don't particularly as a character care about the specifics, I don't even care if she is in the right or not. But if we want to go all IC, Elysium views land as the belonging to the Lord above all else. No Lord in Elysium must live in fear of retaliation from us should they go their own way so long as they held true to their oath and duties while a member of Elysium. So no, as Ruler of Elysium I don't particularly view EI's claims as having any merit. Others of my characters would feel differently, but don't make the mistake of assuming that the course of action you have taken is going to be universally viewed as the appropriate one, or even a valid one.


Fair enough.  And I don't assume that.  Just stating that you're not entirely innocent in this, that EI doesn't consider itself the one who started this war, and that there IS a different view out there that is guiding this affair.  Now I'm happy to play things out as they are and am glad we have different ideas concerning the boundary of realms and the power of lords.  Your realm, as you stated, views its lords as having total authority over the allegiance of their domain.  EI views all lands within as its own and the lords as stewards of that land, and thus, a lord turning it over to another realm is tantamount to theft and treason.  I find it odd and fascinating that Elysium doesn't believe this.  It essentially gives your lords the right to split off if they so choose and tells the world you'd give them a blank pass if they did so, which I find fascinating.  Considering how you stated your realm is a war-like realm and I have to say, you got me hooked.  Might have to make a character there :D


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Everything I posted previously was in character. The empress IC pissed of my character, not me. Orion is a hot headed oaf, one of his few concerns in life is proving his army is superior to all others, including the other Kings of Elysium. I didn't particularly want to be involved in this war, I even toyed with the idea of refusing to send aid to Ryne, but that frankly simply didn't work with the way Orion and his wife have RP'd so far.
[/font][/size]

What did you post in this thread that was remotely in-character?  Allow me to use your language from your first post:

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[/font][/size]gang bangs
[/size][/font]

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my character
[/size][/font]

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[/size][/font][/font]Orion
[/size][/font]

Unless your character has a modern since of slang, has multiple characters himself (characters within characters?), speaks in the third person, and routinely enjoys breaking the fourth wall, all of this post seemed very obviously out-of-character to me.  Forgive me for misinterpreting but if you want what you say taken as 'in-character', you need to re-read your posts and consider how it comes across.


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IC I also don't give two flying hoots about being in EI's favour. There are currently 5 realms that Orion has any respect for. By the end of this war perhaps EI will make the 6th on the list, we shall see should there ever be any battles between Elysium and EI.


That's fair.  Good luck to you and may the game continue then. 

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As to why speak about the Elysium/EI conflict here. It the Elysium thread, it makes sense to talk about things concerning Elysium and Elysiums view of the world in its own thread.
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Perhaps but it just seemed odd that the very first post off this thread dedicated to Elysium comes off like a very aggressive out-of-character attack against another realm and player.  That is why I took issue with it and thought you being immediately inflammatory.  My apologies. 




Also, Calpurnius, you have me at a loss...  I'm afraid I have to admit I don't know a lot of personalities here in the forum versus the in-game ones, or who plays who.   The characters I play are pretty obvious from my name here but what character do you play Calpurnius and how does it have relevance here?  I can't understand your post as your name doesn't seem to mentioned (unless you go by someone else in-game) and I don't know if I've offended you in any way. 


And btw, what is up with the weird editing on this forum?  Seems every post I make I have to go back and correct as the font suddenly increases/ decreases or I get weird html language placed everywhere.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 10:53:25 PM by Lann »

De-Legro

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 12:01:05 AM »
Yeah the problem with our "law" about Lords owning land, is that Orion has in the past bullied Lords in contradiction to that law, but then I guess that is the nature of his character.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 12:05:02 AM by De-Legro »
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Roran Hawkins

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 12:27:20 AM »

Also, Calpurnius, you have me at a loss...  I'm afraid I have to admit I don't know a lot of personalities here in the forum versus the in-game ones, or who plays who.   The characters I play are pretty obvious from my name here but what character do you play Calpurnius and how does it have relevance here?  I can't understand your post as your name doesn't seem to mentioned (unless you go by someone else in-game) and I don't know if I've offended you in any way. 

And btw, what is up with the weird editing on this forum?  Seems every post I make I have to go back and correct as the font suddenly increases/ decreases or I get weird html language placed everywhere.

The weird editing is weird. Don't bother. Try to manually do your coding, it's fairly simple. In the text editor use the 'toggle view' button to switch to pure coding editor.

Concerning Calpurinius, he is coming here to say that in the one-sided flaming war he kept in my Ascalon thread he only meant to target me with his remarks, considering Zandar's post probably originated from being randomly mentioned several times in the locked thread. I kinda know by now why he's holding an OOC crusade against me, and possibly IC too, but because of his attitude about it I stopped bothering. I don't know who he all plays, but as far as I can tell he plays House Gorling in the Stonedlands, and some characters in the EI. I wouldn't know where else he plays though.

@Calpurinius: Please, if you want to continue this argument, do it through PM with me. There is no need to play the white knight crusading against me if it's a personal quarrel you have with me, we're only going to get more threads locked like this.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 12:31:22 AM by Roran Hawkins »
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Zandar

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 12:44:23 AM »
Please may I try and say again. My comments have nothing to do with Octavius, Ryne, Eldamar, or Elysium. They are only mentioned as background for my anger from comments by another person.  It is hard to ignore continued comments made in forum to sway opinions for in game events. Did anyone read any comments about the war before Roran made his comment in the forum ?

I encourage people to look back one year ago in the beginning of the Ascalon thread.  Notice  the interpretation of  those comments by others.  Why is it so hard to understand that bringing comments to the forum to persuade in game opinions is misleading and harmful. Add to the fact, that current actions are opposite of past comments. Notice the comment hoping others will stay out and the mention of Rathgar. 

This is what my complaint is about.  If the forum was to be part of the ongoing events in game, them please incorporate it into the game itself so more people can be aware and use it.

That argument falls so flat. Firstly there is little difference between misunderstands and misinterpretations in the forum or in the game. The problem is some peoples perspective and their inability to recall this is a game and take a step back. That problem will plague them regardless. Secondly don't bother making assumptions about the purpose of the forums. The man that created the forums and the game frequents them. If he see's something that isn't as he wants then he has this amazing power to write a quick post about it.

Before you decided to accuse Roran of OOC motivation and attack him as a player, the forum was merely reporting occurrences as they appeared from some character views. You escalated the matter, and now come to plead about forum etiquette? You make unprovable assumptions about someone elses motivation due to some limited interaction you had months ago. In RL would you call such interaction a valid sample basis from which to peg someone's personality?

Calpurnius

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 04:00:25 PM »
Why can I not assume the forums are for people to discuss things out of character, so they can talk freely. Why is it so hard to understand that when people communicate out of character,  what they say should be and are seem as truth.

I see in game actions as anything goes.  I find it insulting that someone will speak 'out of character' in the forum to persuade in game opinions. Or complain about Realms ganging up on his own realm ( which never did happen ), then do the same to someone else and have it interpreted as "bad timing.

Did you read those posts, he even says things got out of hand because of his ooc comments.

Should I be discussing all the BS our realm continues to go through here, and then be asking people in the forum to believe everything I say and react to it.

Again, I now see myself as a minority of one who believes on going events should stay in the game. I'm sure there is a reason why communication must be established in game between realm, if not then make it so everyone playing can have easier access to these comments, rather the the 20 or so who frequent the forums.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:14:31 PM by Calpurnius »

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 08:37:24 PM »
The weird editing is weird. Don't bother. Try to manually do your coding, it's fairly simple. In the text editor use the 'toggle view' button to switch to pure coding editor.

Concerning Calpurinius, he is coming here to say that in the one-sided flaming war he kept in my Ascalon thread he only meant to target me with his remarks, considering Zandar's post probably originated from being randomly mentioned several times in the locked thread. I kinda know by now why he's holding an OOC crusade against me, and possibly IC too, but because of his attitude about it I stopped bothering. I don't know who he all plays, but as far as I can tell he plays House Gorling in the Stonedlands, and some characters in the EI. I wouldn't know where else he plays though.

@Calpurinius: Please, if you want to continue this argument, do it through PM with me. There is no need to play the white knight crusading against me if it's a personal quarrel you have with me, we're only going to get more threads locked like this.


I'm just going to say that for once i agree with Calpurnius. This whole thing has turned into a fiasco. It would have been much more interesting for people to see that a realm is already at war and hold off declaring on them until after the current war, or to opt out of supporting their allies in what is merely a continuation of the border conflicts between two realms (such as I have done with Tetsuyama, where I have publicly stated our neutrality in this war).

Roran Hawkins

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 11:14:46 PM »
Would it have been much more interesting because of IC reasons or because of OOC reasons? I could not predict that the very limited, clear and long anticipated war I declared would have such a heavy OOC reaction, and from an IC perspective I fail to see how this situation is less interesting. You are right though that the situation, especially OOC'ly is far from desired, I mean, I have inadvertedly started a flamewar directed against me.

I feel conflicted about letting OOC knowledge influence IC knowledge, even though some common sense should definitely be present. In this situation I don't feel that I acted wrong though, neither from an IC nor OOC perspective. It mightn't have been the most proper thing to do to attack when the Imperium was already at war (I think that if you go nitpicky about it the war with Ryne ended a few IG days before I attacked, but that's negligible) but as I said before, not everything is always nice.

EDIT: I'm being a bit too defensive here. I think it's in part up to each different person what he would see as more appropriate for this kind of a situation.


Perhaps more on-topic, Elysium has always intruiged me and if I wasn't at my character limit currently I'd have loved to create a character here. The war-like and agressive diplomatic stance is so unique for their realm, I must admit I kinda expected behaviour like this from the Northern clans initially.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 11:31:43 PM by Roran Hawkins »
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Zandar

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 11:33:08 PM »
I'm just going to say that for once i agree with Calpurnius. This whole thing has turned into a fiasco. It would have been much more interesting for people to see that a realm is already at war and hold off declaring on them until after the current war, or to opt out of supporting their allies in what is merely a continuation of the border conflicts between two realms (such as I have done with Tetsuyama, where I have publicly stated our neutrality in this war).

The "fiasco" is of their own making. Both wars were extremely limited in scope, both had clear land goals that are tiny compared to the size of the Imperium, both offered terms instead of war and the EI decided to roll with war regardless in both cases. As I understand it Ascalon firstly pushed their claim to the land, war was only declared when they saw EI forces amassing on their borders instead of engaging in dialog.

Why can I not assume the forums are for people to discuss things out of character, so they can talk freely. Why is it so hard to understand that when people communicate out of character,  what they say should be and are seem as truth.

I see in game actions as anything goes.  I find it insulting that someone will speak 'out of character' in the forum to persuade in game opinions. Or complain about Realms ganging up on his own realm ( which never did happen ), then do the same to someone else and have it interpreted as "bad timing.

Did you read those posts, he even says things got out of hand because of his ooc comments.

Should I be discussing all the BS our realm continues to go through here, and then be asking people in the forum to believe everything I say and react to it.

Again, I now see myself as a minority of one who believes on going events should stay in the game. I'm sure there is a reason why communication must be established in game between realm, if not then make it so everyone playing can have easier access to these comments, rather the the 20 or so who frequent the forums.

You can assume all you want, doesn't make it a binding rule that anyone else needs to follow. It is your preference to handle things that way, others disagree and enjoy doing things other ways, ways which as Andrews recent post demostrate are well within the established rules and purpose of the forum.

Perhaps more on-topic, Elysium has always intruiged me and if I wasn't at my character limit currently I'd have loved to create a character here. The war-like and agressive diplomatic stance is so unique for their realm, I must admit I kinda expected behaviour like this from the Northern clans initially.

Elysium was founded because I found playing in the North to be completely unsatisfying. I played in five different realms there ans I couldn't find any that didn't seem to think respecting strength was the same thing as institutionalized bullying. Nothing wrong with that play style mind you, just wasn't what I was looking for when I wanted to play in a warrior culture.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 11:40:13 PM by Zandar »