Author Topic: Elysium  (Read 8549 times)

Calpurnius

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2015, 05:27:06 PM »
Zandar,

Roran mentioned that I repeat the same thing over when responding to replies. The reason is because everyone makes the issue of something it is not. It is not about how the wars started. It is about how people come to the forum and speak on their behalf involving current events and try to influence the situation.  You say " I can assume all I want " but its not a binding rule, you are correct. I just like to think the people who speak here would be telling the truth, since the forum is not part of the game. As you say it is not binding here or in life, but this is just a game, no real benefit, so why the need.
I also like to think people who complain when things happened to them, would show respect to others and not be a hypocrite in regards to piling on in already lopsided wars.

I'm done trying to convince people this is not about the war with EI, merely about how oneperson continually attempts to benefit from actions against mostly new players. I have been here from the start and have seen and read his treatment of new players, them watch him come to the forum  to persuade everyone differently about what actually happened.
Rroan asked should we be excluded from being attacked because we were trying to reach out and help new players, the answer is no. We are not excluded from anything, but if you would like to see them stay,  Perhaps he could have waited awhile before jumping in to create a 4 against 1 war. Give them a chance to deal with the already one sided 3 - 1 war.

In character all events described are reasonable. It is just that we spent a lot of time trying to save a dead realm to bring new players into the game. Just very disappointed that his in game needs supersede that attempt. When Alummani/Thomas family, and FritzMaurice family left, there were almost 100 inactive regions. Land and soldiers were given to anyone who requested. We gathered enough activity from new and returning people to see it down to only 8 inactive regions. The new players were able to even make their own knight offers to continue the regrowing effort. I do realize people will come and go for different reasons, just really hate to see one of those reasons being a pile on type war. The empire is now back to about 60 regions without lords.

Zandar, when you say the " fiasco was of their own making". Are you trying to say in game that is how it is perceived, or are you saying that is how it actually happened.  Since I cannot assume what you say is true, I have to ask you to explain why you mentioned it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 05:30:15 PM by Calpurnius »

Tom

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2015, 05:48:03 PM »
Since I play Octavius:

Yes, the timing was abysmal for Erstes. Intentionally so. The whole thing was meant to drag as many realms into the conflict as possible, should Erstes - as I expected they would - insist that these estates are theirs (which, at the core of everything, is what Octavius disputes).

So I made one relative join Eldamar and gave her an estate, then Octavius joined Ryne. I thought (correctly) that this would be enough to drag those two realms into war with EI. I didn't expect Elysium would join.

I'm a little disappointed the war was (almost) ended so fast. I had hoped for some intense fighting and then some kind of peace treaty. Likely involving me giving up half of my estates or something, they're worthless scrublands anyways.

Funny how three realms battle over some principles. That really made me happy. Everyone knew that the estates in question aren't worth sending even a hundred men to battle.

Roran Hawkins

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2015, 06:02:01 PM »
Zandar,

Roran mentioned that I repeat the same thing over when responding to replies. The reason is because everyone makes the issue of something it is not. It is not about how the wars started. It is about how people come to the forum and speak on their behalf involving current events and try to influence the situation.  You say " I can assume all I want " but its not a binding rule, you are correct. I just like to think the people who speak here would be telling the truth, since the forum is not part of the game. As you say it is not binding here or in life, but this is just a game, no real benefit, so why the need.
I also like to think people who complain when things happened to them, would show respect to others and not be a hypocrite in regards to piling on in already lopsided wars.

I'm done trying to convince people this is not about the war with EI, merely about how oneperson continually attempts to benefit from actions against mostly new players. I have been here from the start and have seen and read his treatment of new players, them watch him come to the forum  to persuade everyone differently about what actually happened.
Rroan asked should we be excluded from being attacked because we were trying to reach out and help new players, the answer is no. We are not excluded from anything, but if you would like to see them stay,  Perhaps he could have waited awhile before jumping in to create a 4 against 1 war. Give them a chance to deal with the already one sided 3 - 1 war.

In character all events described are reasonable. It is just that we spent a lot of time trying to save a dead realm to bring new players into the game. Just very disappointed that his in game needs supersede that attempt. When Alummani/Thomas family, and FritzMaurice family left, there were almost 100 inactive regions. Land and soldiers were given to anyone who requested. We gathered enough activity from new and returning people to see it down to only 8 inactive regions. The new players were able to even make their own knight offers to continue the regrowing effort. I do realize people will come and go for different reasons, just really hate to see one of those reasons being a pile on type war. The empire is now back to about 60 regions without lords.

Zandar, when you say the " fiasco was of their own making". Are you trying to say in game that is how it is perceived, or are you saying that is how it actually happened.  Since I cannot assume what you say is true, I have to ask you to explain why you mentioned it.


And yet you are deaf to every argument I bring to defend my position. You cannot know what my plans and ideas are and should not make assumptions about them and throw them around as if they are fact. I have offered you the chance to discuss it with me in private through PM so I can debunk the misconceptions you seem to have about me. However instead you ignored me as it seems you would much rather continue to crusade against me without actually dealing with the source of the problem that exists between us. I am not some kind of big evil that needs to be destroyed for the good of the game, such a black and white vision is never correct.


If you are not willing to listen to my arguments then how am I, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to conduct a reasonable discussion with you. Yes, you have replied by now to several points I and others raised, but you see it as fact that I am an evil, bad element for the game without any second thought, and continue to bitch on me like there's no tomorrow.
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Calpurnius

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2015, 07:05:21 PM »
Tom, I play the Schultze and Rentzell characthers in EI, we were willing to fight the war. Thinking we would have an opportunity to concede defeat and relinquish the land.  An offer was made by EI to limit the area of fighting and the EI duchies that would be involved. Ryne chose to call in Elysium and attacked regions outside the contested areas.  What we had hoped would be a border dispute, soon resulted in 3 to 1 realm war.

The war ended so quickly because we realized our troops were  outnumbered when everyone starting joining.

A little history of how things escalate,

One of the experience players accepted a knight offer in EI and soon turned over contol of his duchy to powers in the north. Plenty of excitement leading to threats of 3 - 1 war. Then a regional lord said something to his neighbor,  causing another 3 - 1 threat of war. Everyone continually wonders why no one fights, here it is, no simple border dispute, all out " pile on one" realm war.  Even when Eldamar joined, we continued to fight, we also had threats that Elysium was on their way, so when the offer came to end the conflict we accepted the day after receiving it ( somewhere in the 6-8-? week ). Here we are, still at war with everyone. Through all of this, not one word was spoken in this forum about it ...... until Roran made a misleading comment in the forum.

My response arose because Roran made a comment which led you to believe it was "bad timing". I have been trying to point out Roran knew exactly what he was doing and was clearly aware of the internal problems trying to give and recapture lands as new players were coming and going. And that those action were in complete contrast to his comments one year ago. ( about others staying out his war, and when one other person became involved, complained about the how awful it was fo rall of Rathgar to join in against him ).   

I think that the best possibility of retaining new players is, not to knowingly create 4 - 1 wars soon after new people start. No one else involved came to the forum to justify their actions, because they were unaware of our situation and just doing what the situation warranted.

It is not his "in game actions" that bother me,  he had already attacked EI settlements, prior to me speaking here . It is because of Roran coming to the forum to justify those actions, which are in contrast to the comments he made one year age. Roran did know of the internal situation and used a one year old excuse to join in at that moment., no bad timing.



Roran Hawkins

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2015, 08:11:21 PM »
I must literally be invisible to him when I'm not saying things he can use against me.
My response arose because Roran made a comment which led you to believe it was "bad timing". I have been trying to point out Roran knew exactly what he was doing and was clearly aware of the internal problems trying to give and recapture lands as new players were coming and going. And that those action were in complete contrast to his comments one year ago. ( about others staying out his war, and when one other person became involved, complained about the how awful it was fo rall of Rathgar to join in against him ).   


It seems we agree for once, which is also the point of my concern. You fail to see that the past is the past and think I am purposefully manipulating 'public' opinion and knowledge of what is going on. The situation in the past was what it was, and we both made faults there, and I for one learned from it and tried to do better.


We cannot conduct a healthy discussion about this so long as you refuse to believe that I am not purposefully playing the OOC to help me IC. If you would for once try to talk without me without that prejudice you would find me a lot more reasonable than before. Hence why I invited you to hold that discussion in PM since I feel that if we remove the need to prove a point to other people than just the two of us we can have a much more honest discussion about this.


In fact, I will be sending you a PM right now. I'm tired of this entire thing.
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Calpurnius

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2015, 09:11:50 PM »
Roran, I have had interaction with you from day one. You could never change my opinion from your comments and actions to other new players.

Should I start with the first meeting, some new lands had opened and I met you in the first region you were trying to capture. You immediately threatened my character,  to join your new kingdom or face the forces of Rathgar. So new you thought I was new, and never looked to see I was a member of Rathgar. I let you know I was trying to gain land for my new vassals and if could work out something to avoid conflict over acquiring the new lands. That didn't go well, you threatened one of the new vassal.  Spoke to the person supporting you, and was persuaded OOC to hand over my vassal to you kingdom " for the good of the game". Tried to make a point in the forum of people using ooc conversation to influence game play here, again the point was missed, I relented.  Made the arrangement to have my vassals join you realm, on the condition they could keep the regions I gave to their family. When I informed my vassals of that decision, the one who was threatened was not happy, and I  never heard from them again. So Mali family got all the regions. Part of the agreement was I make a member of my realm part of Ascalon, unfortunetly I never read any of the Ascalon messages until after you tried to take all the Mali lands. You claimed treason because Alumaani said a Mali vassal did not inform you that he wished to make contact with you.  I had been able to read several mentions from Mali, asking why Alumaani troops were marching through Asclon. You decide to claim Mali unfit and demand all their land. Which led to your posts in your Realm thread about others interfering.

Lets move on to some other things I read and conversations I had with one of the people you brought into the game. They mentioned how they had been attacked by other members of the realm while they were trying to take control over some new regions. And she felt you were just land grabbing. I then was able to read argument between you and her over another dispute involving the same person that attacked her. You sided with the attacker, and soon another person disappeared.

Then the vassal of the now inactive person received land from a new liege, you and your duke then demanded that land. The land was returned and that person left Ascalon. 

These actions may all be stretched to say they are reasonable, but are the benefits you received worth the possible loss of players.  Keep in mind these are members of your own realm.  Some people may not  feel  being treated like that is worth the effort to stay.

I will leave you with a couple of final questions. How many of those lands you demanded were in your realm before Mali joined, how many did you contribute to acquiring ??   At some point in a game, there should be some semblance of fair play for new people to see. You had plenty of land and power, what possible point was there to bully your own members for their land.  That is when you also went to the forum to say it was an ooc misunderstanding.

Roran you are welcome to tell others a different version, I'm sure they will defend your actions, but there is nothing you can say that could change what I have witnessed to make me change my opinion of you.


Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »
Since I play Octavius:

Yes, the timing was abysmal for Erstes. Intentionally so. The whole thing was meant to drag as many realms into the conflict as possible, should Erstes - as I expected they would - insist that these estates are theirs (which, at the core of everything, is what Octavius disputes).

So I made one relative join Eldamar and gave her an estate, then Octavius joined Ryne. I thought (correctly) that this would be enough to drag those two realms into war with EI. I didn't expect Elysium would join.

I'm a little disappointed the war was (almost) ended so fast. I had hoped for some intense fighting and then some kind of peace treaty. Likely involving me giving up half of my estates or something, they're worthless scrublands anyways.

Funny how three realms battle over some principles. That really made me happy. Everyone knew that the estates in question aren't worth sending even a hundred men to battle.

I'm really disappointed in you Tom. You are constantly at it about making things better for new players, and then when a realm is making progress in keeping new players, you do something that completely contradicts your opinion on keeping new players. We are perfectly capable of making our own conflicts without GM intervention, thank you. Now EI's progress in rebuilding its player population has been set back real-life months, all thanks to your idiotic intervention.

Roran Hawkins

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2015, 11:08:34 PM »
Snip.


The points you raise here are from either the period when I myself was a new player and hardly knew how the game worked or not on my orders. There's also a blatant lie in there, which you would've known if you read my PM.

I sent you a 1800 word PM explaining my side of the situation, and you replied that you didn't even bother reading. I will now hereby ignore your sorry nagging ass. You can accuse me of many things, but do not accuse me of not trying to improve the game or trying to solve the problem. It is your choice to be prejudiced by second hand sources and experiences to the point that when you are offered a second version of the story you ignore it.
I will not further waste my time arguing with the likes of you.

I'm really disappointed in you Tom. You are constantly at it about making things better for new players, and then when a realm is making progress in keeping new players, you do something that completely contradicts your opinion on keeping new players. We are perfectly capable of making our own conflicts without GM intervention, thank you. Now EI's progress in rebuilding its player population has been set back real-life months, all thanks to your idiotic intervention.


He brought lots of interaction to four different realms as a PLAYER of his game. I don't see that as a problem at all. The different wars the EI was involved with were LIMITED, CLEAR and HEALTHY. If anything it was the lack of information the top-tiers in the Imperium give to their vassals that got them to quit, since I have a character inside aswell and he doesn't even know why we are fighting Ascalon and what they want. The members only hear vague information of what is going on, defeating the entire purpose of clear casus belli the attacking realms have used to avoid just that demoralisation.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 11:19:50 PM by Roran Hawkins »
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Tweeznax

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2015, 11:16:18 PM »
Has anyone tried explaining to these new characters, in-game and in-character, how these setbacks only provide new urgency to whatever plans the EI has for getting back on track? Or made any attempt whatsoever to smooth things over?

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 12:01:37 AM »
The war ended so quickly because we realized our troops were  outnumbered when everyone starting joining.

Actually, not really. After things went quiet again, I checked the statistics and militarily, EI is quite massive, probably much stronger than you think.

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 12:05:35 AM »
I'm really disappointed in you Tom. You are constantly at it about making things better for new players, and then when a realm is making progress in keeping new players, you do something that completely contradicts your opinion on keeping new players. We are perfectly capable of making our own conflicts without GM intervention, thank you. Now EI's progress in rebuilding its player population has been set back real-life months, all thanks to your idiotic intervention.

I completely don't get why you see this as GM intervention. I was merely playing my character who got bored in his small corner of the realm and decided to stir up some trouble.

Did frogs fall from the sky? Did rivers appear out of nowhere and mountains turned into swamps? If not, why you call this GM intervention? Please. I was already forced to leave one game I created because everyone always thought of me as the GM and not as a player. That, btw. is one of the reasons MaF will never allow you to see which characters belong to what user. I play a couple that are not tied to my three realm-starter-families, and I do have fun with them.

Calpurnius

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2015, 12:25:37 AM »
I try to say over and over, this is not about the 3 - 1 conflict. It is about a 4th realm piling on with a clear undestanding of his actions. Then making a comment that has Tom responds with "bad timing" it was perfect timing.

As to the power of EI,  lots of that power now rests with the new players who left. And a fear to hand out even more troops to see them disappear also. When the Compton family arrived,  them and a couple others were made sheriffs to chase bandits. Troops were given to each, Compton was active enough to be made a duke, given more troops to reacquire inactive lands. All those troops in all those regions are gone now. The former emperor of EI returned, was given land and troops for his family, those troops are now lost.  Another person quit with 200 troops in his regions. That must be the power you are speaking of. Plenty of power was handed out to bring new players in, and we feel at a loss for our efforts when someone knowingly tried to take advantage of revolving new players. 4 against 1 over a border dispute is over the top.

De-Legro

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2015, 12:37:39 AM »
I try to say over and over, this is not about the 3 - 1 conflict. It is about a 4th realm piling on with a clear undestanding of his actions. Then making a comment that has Tom responds with "bad timing" it was perfect timing.

As to the power of EI,  lots of that power now rests with the new players who left. And a fear to hand out even more troops to see them disappear also. When the Compton family arrived,  them and a couple others were made sheriffs to chase bandits. Troops were given to each, Compton was active enough to be made a duke, given more troops to reacquire inactive lands. All those troops in all those regions are gone now. The former emperor of EI returned, was given land and troops for his family, those troops are now lost.  Another person quit with 200 troops in his regions. That must be the power you are speaking of. Plenty of power was handed out to bring new players in, and we feel at a loss for our efforts when someone knowingly tried to take advantage of revolving new players. 4 against 1 over a border dispute is over the top.


You didn't need a 2nd war though. You could have ceded those three regions to concentrate on the war you were already fighting. EI made a choice here. Funny thing, I PLAY in EI, in the eastern Duchies. I have not been advised that the Ryne war is over, or if it is not where my troops should be, who is in military command, what our targets are, basically anything. Nor am I advised on anything happening in the west. I'm sitting here, as a small time knight, in a time of war with absolutely nothing to do and no idea what is going on, the ONLY thing that has happened was I was told to drop my tiny unit of men (<15) as militia in four different settlements.


EI's problem to me is that a few players still control masses of land and troops, and they seem to run the military themselves without needing to caring to really co-ordinate. That might not be true, but I am giving the perspective as an average player of EI, one who is not in the upper levels of the realm.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 12:41:41 AM »

You didn't need a 2nd war though. You could have ceded those three regions to concentrate on the war you were already fighting. EI made a choice here. Funny thing, I PLAY in EI, in the eastern Duchies. I have not been advised that the Ryne war is over, or if it is not where my troops should be, who is in military command, what our targets are, basically anything. Nor am I advised on anything happening in the west. I'm sitting here, as a small time knight, in a time of war with absolutely nothing to do and no idea what is going on, the ONLY thing that has happened was I was told to drop my tiny unit of men (<15) as militia in four different settlements.


EI's problem to me is that a few players still control masses of land and troops, and they seem to run the military themselves without needing to caring to really co-ordinate. That might not be true, but I am giving the perspective as an average player of EI, one who is not in the upper levels of the realm.


Funny, I had the exact opposite impression during the time I was in EI. Funny that. EI is a realm where you get back exactly what you put into it. If you were to, I don't know, create a conversation for coordinating the military, I'm sure there would be a huge response. But people aren't going to notice you if you don't do anything to be noticed.

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Re: Elysium
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2015, 12:44:43 AM »

Funny, I had the exact opposite impression during the time I was in EI. Funny that. EI is a realm where you get back exactly what you put into it. If you were to, I don't know, create a conversation for coordinating the military, I'm sure there would be a huge response. But people aren't going to notice you if you don't do anything to be noticed.


Why should I need to be noticed? I am a knight. I should not be having to push the leadership into providing the base minimum information for their realm to actual feel a part of the realm. You guys talk about new player retention. Here is a hint, if you are forcing them to initiate everything you will lose them. No different to a BM realm that has no realm chatter, players will assume it is dead.
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