Author Topic: General feedback and suggestions  (Read 1965 times)

Aly_Fontaine

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General feedback and suggestions
« on: January 13, 2015, 11:18:56 AM »
Hi guys, first post, I feel bad that it is in the Rage Zone.

So I'm relatively new to M&F but been playing BM for a couple of years. I like so many concepts about this game, and wish I'd been able to do something similar myself. I love base and stronghold building games, so all the buildings and stats and so on really hit the right buttons.

What I really like:
 - the huge map and that travel and actions are not in 'turns'
 - everything about the open diplomacy and hierarchies (not limited to set positions)
 - that the pay model isn't pay to win, but amplifies your enjoyment if you want to contribute
- being able to place things on the map and link them up with roads. Fun, and lets me change the landscape.

What I really dislike:
 - the messaging system. Ugh. I have to wade through old messages, cant easily save notes, get no feedback if people have gotten my messages or not.
 - how difficult it is to understand how resources are being consumed!! I can't tell if my militia are using up resources or not, or whether my own troops or entourage are having a negative effect on resources. I'd love to have each of the key resources broken down to tell me how you arrive at the final figure.
 - how hard it is to get a positive population growth. I dont know whether there's an in-game drought or not (and I hate that I cant know that), but it seems like my settlements only produce food on 1:1 basis. So people will starve if I use them for anything else but food. I dont want to wait months for buildings and troops to be created!

My suggestions
- change up the messaging system to.. more like email i guess?
- break down the resource consumption so I know how I can effect it, and maybe create an edict system that allows me to regulate the consumption (rationing, etc). I want to know whether it's worth putting a focus in a building like market, but the focus spends even more food!
- since population growth is linked to food, let me spend other resources (at a massive mark-up of course) so that food is less 1:1 for population. Create more buildings that can turn resources into food. Spend metal for canning, wood for smoking and goods or wealth for salting? Otherwise trade in local markets instead of between settlements.

Hope I can get some feedback going, I'm enjoying it but frustrated with the above.

Andrew

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 11:35:51 AM »
As of right now, roads do not affect travel, though bridges and terrain type do. In the mean time they do look cool, and I'm quite proud of my network.

The message system used to have a method to keep track of things, but it got taken out or hidden recently for some reason.

The entourage "prospector" can tell you quite a bit more about your resources. To answer your question, soldiers eat 1 food while producing none. Militia eat 1 food, but produce 0.75 of what a villager does. Villagers eat 1 food, and produce 1 food. Food quantity has a lot of variables in it. All regions have a base amount that depends on their type. That's further altered by proximity to water (whether or not a lake/ocean/river is touch the region), the population (this can both increase and decrease food production as more people working the fields isn't always a good thing), any buildings that allow more food to reach people or be made (mill, market, & fairgound), and the quantity of militia in the area. Militia count as population but aren't reflected in the region population count. They do count towards building requirements though. Only fully trained militia count towards food production though, so during training they produce nothing.

And you're right, settlements only produce on a 1:1 basis. Population isn't exactly a set number, but there is a literal upper limit to what the game produce. The mill, market, and fairground all increase the availability of food, either by making it easier to trade or by letting you make more, but once every region has a maximum amount, that's it.

As for building focuses, they do NOT affect resource production. Only the training of entourage and the production of equipment (swords, shields, armor, etc.).

If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to ask. I'd be happy to help you figure things out.
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De-Legro

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 11:54:52 AM »
My suggestions
- change up the messaging system to.. more like email i guess?
- break down the resource consumption so I know how I can effect it, and maybe create an edict system that allows me to regulate the consumption (rationing, etc). I want to know whether it's worth putting a focus in a building like market, but the focus spends even more food!
- since population growth is linked to food, let me spend other resources (at a massive mark-up of course) so that food is less 1:1 for population. Create more buildings that can turn resources into food. Spend metal for canning, wood for smoking and goods or wealth for salting? Otherwise trade in local markets instead of between settlements.

Hope I can get some feedback going, I'm enjoying it but frustrated with the above.


Tom doesn't have the time to work on the message system, but he did open source the code so anyone with php skills can work on it. Building consumes population, there is no real way around it. Many people only commit 15-20% of the work force to building. Doing that (or more if you like) will decrease your population in the short term, but will get the construction complete faster, after which population will return to something similar to what you started with.


Trading to a NPC market would destroy Tom attempts to both balance resources, and make player-player interaction via trade work. I regularly trade wood and metal, on rare occasions I can get access to food. More often food is paid in tribute by my vassals, or our conquests.
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Aly_Fontaine

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 12:36:58 PM »

As for building focuses, they do NOT affect resource production. Only the training of entourage and the production of equipment (swords, shields, armor, etc.).

So a focus on market won't affect any production? what's the point then? All settlements must slowly starve above their nominal ppopulation if you ever want to build or train.

Andre

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 12:41:56 PM »
So a focus on market won't affect any production? what's the point then? All settlements must slowly starve above their nominal ppopulation if you ever want to build or train.
Market is the only non equipment building that can be focused i belive, and focusing it wont give you food, it will give a small amount, but those extra peasants working will take more food, but in return they give you more of other resources which you could then trade.


Also it wont hurt if you starve your settlement for a few days to build something, most likely if the building is finished very quickly, you wont even notice a loss, yeah sure youll maybe lose 10 peasants, but thats really nothing and if your settlement has not starved for a long time and been positive or close to then that loss of food wont affect them right away, it will only affect them if its prolonged, or if you have just a few days ago done the same thing. And population grows back relativly quickly after building is done.

De-Legro

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 12:48:16 PM »
So a focus on market won't affect any production? what's the point then? All settlements must slowly starve above their nominal ppopulation if you ever want to build or train.


Yes, taking a man out of the fields to train or build means one less hand to work the fields. "nominal" population is when the maximum possible workforce is in the fields, in any society once you move people to other professions, all other things being equal food production is going to suffer.


But the settlements don't starve, the population will drop to a new equilibrium.


Market is the only non equipment building that can be focused i belive, and focusing it wont give you food, it will give a small amount, but those extra peasants working will take more food, but in return they give you more of other resources which you could then trade.



Nope, inn as well. I suspect all entourage production facilities can get focus, and that it speeds the number of entourage available.
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Tan dSerrai

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 01:20:11 PM »
Food:

There are some wrong informations about food above:

mobile troops each eat 1 food.
militia troops each eat 1 food AND produce half of what a peasant would produce.
Peasants working in buildings each eat 1 food - and produce none.
'Free' peasants each eat 1 food AND produce different amounts of food, depending on the estate and how large the populations is: Basically more peasants produce more food, but with ever diminishing returns. An example: In an estate of 1000 the first 100 peasants each produce 3 food, the next 100 2,6, the next 100 2,2...and so on. The last peasants will produce maybe 1,2 food each....so peasant basically produce a food surplus that is eaten by them - and by everyone not producing food (soldiers, peasants working in buildings)

The other thing you need to know is that populations always keeps growing and falling....if you have a positive food balance your pop will grow until it balances out (0 food)....if you have a negative food balance you will loose some population.

So you _can_ build....say you have a balanced estate and decide to build something. You can set 15-20% of the population to building....which means less food, which means you will lose some pop. Once the building is finished, your builders return to the fields - produce food and your population rises again.


Andrew

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 02:14:49 PM »
Oh, oops. Forgot those working in buildings.

De-Legro has it right on focus as far as I'm aware; the market and inn focusing only affects their production of entourage.

As far as starving goes, peasants can survive quite a while with slightly less food, so it's not immediate effects if you suddenly pull some people off the fields. Starving will only happen if you have a continued lack of food over a long period. On the flipside, starving does take a little bit to recover from as well, normally a few days.
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Valast

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 04:59:31 PM »
Details details details... bagh!

What I have found is that we need to take a more rounded thought process on resources in the game.  The game is not like those others where you can get down to the gnats teet on exactly what is produced and where it is going.  You have to put that behind you.

With food for example you always know it will adjust to zero.  So if you are at -200 food, wait.  It will balance to zero.  If you want wood walls, build them and let the food balance go neg.  It will balance back to zero and then the wall will finish and suddenly you are positive and the population will grow again...to zero food balance.

If someone marches through your settlement, your food drops.  Entourage eats food... If you have a standing army assigned to you...they make the food drop.  Put them as militia the food rises again.  On top of all of this, if you have any liege over you... you are likely going to be sending food and resources up the chain to them.

It really is all way too much to micro manage. 

Instead, be the noble.  Accept that you are above the peasant population and do not worry so much about exact numbers.

bottom line is this is not a builder game where only a few things adjust production.  In this game EVERYTHING adjusts everything.  Focus on the politics and relations.  Get in good with your King or liege... then they will help provide for you.  As you move up the political chain, you gain trust and through that you broker your way into better trade deals or even gifts.

Player to player interaction is the tech tree of the game to me.

Tom

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Re: General feedback and suggestions
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 05:51:26 PM »
Valast wrote a really good reply there. I have no reasons to hide details, but they will not be so easily available. The prospector reveals a lot, and probably later on some building or some other entourage will reveal more.

But basically: Micro-managing is the wrong approach in this game. Settlements always balance each other out somehow. Peasants are smart and will do the right thing.

The correct numbers for food production are:
Peasants working the fields: Produce food, amount depends on many, many things.
Militia: Produces half the amount of a peasant.
Recruits in training, mobile forces, entourage, peasants working in buildings or on construction projects produce no food.