Author Topic: Only participating when threatened?  (Read 6665 times)

Andrew

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Only participating when threatened?
« on: December 18, 2014, 10:20:54 AM »
So, this has been bothering me for a while, but why is that there are a bunch of people that only really seem to be interested in politics the moment they are threatened? I mean, seriously. I keep making opportunities for discussion and interaction, but why is that you only care about anything when it's something you made that's threatened. Why should I care that your stuff is threatened when you've done precisely nothing to contribute to the work the rest of us are doing to make this interesting?

Frankly, it's annoying.
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De-Legro

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 11:25:00 AM »
In many cases it is far worse then just annoying. They can be tying up masses of land that pretty much do nothing and add nothing to the living world. Not so much of an issue just now since so much land has recently fallen to slumberblight, though you need to know to look for it but in my opinion such activities simply prevent potentially interesting realms and characters from being able to develop, simply so someone can treat a multi player game like a simcity clone.
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Huntsmaster

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 05:20:01 AM »
It's gotta be at least partially because the way the game goes right now "being threatened" translates roughly to "having 15x your numbers show up to roflstomp things in total silence". That'll get you out of isolationism in a hurry.


From personal experience, it's especially irritating to have this happen when you're in the middle of developing characters to specifically antagonize someone in a more equal matchup.

De-Legro

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 06:27:50 AM »
It's gotta be at least partially because the way the game goes right now "being threatened" translates roughly to "having 15x your numbers show up to roflstomp things in total silence". That'll get you out of isolationism in a hurry.


From personal experience, it's especially irritating to have this happen when you're in the middle of developing characters to specifically antagonize someone in a more equal matchup.


If you are developing characters then you should not be in isolation. You should be interacting, with realm mates, with potential allies, even setting up the ground work for animosities. What Andrew and myself see all to often are realms that are silent. Place a character there and there is no realm chat. Send emissaries and there is no reply. Send some troops though and suddenly a player that refused to interact with others will be quiet happy to be VERY active in protecting his/her quiet little Kingdom, sometime I even get some banter from them. Once the war is over though they simply return to the status quo, playing simcity on their own. In my opinion if a realm is not interacting internally, or with the game world at large, then it is simply wasting land that potentially could harbour something of actual interest to the greater player base. Of course this is hard to judge, as sometimes you are simply not be included in the activity, but often I see realms that are either 1 player, or a few players whom are RL friends that simply isolate themselves from the world.
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Calpurnius

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 05:12:01 PM »
I isolate myself because I don't know who any of these characters play for.  I have seen and read too many times when someone thinks they assisting  or helping a new character, they find out it is just a character working for their enemy.
The character to real player ratio, makes it impossible to overcome any amount of deceit.
On more then one occasion, I have had a person whom thought I was helping turn out to be a character for my enemy. I would love to help and give land to new players. But it seems the characters that accept my knight offers are mostly by someone already playing, and I don't trust anyone because of the number of times it has gone bad.
Interaction is difficult when there is nothing to talk about, no rumors of war, rulers dying, armies seen moving, alliances formed.


Roran Hawkins

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 06:20:06 PM »
Interaction is difficult when there is nothing to talk about, no rumors of war, rulers dying, armies seen moving, alliances formed.


This especially prevents conversations in the realm. So long players are forced to delve into the world for ongoing events those with less time availible are going to be a lot less active.
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Huntsmaster

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 12:50:43 AM »
Interaction is difficult when there is nothing to talk about, no rumors of war, rulers dying, armies seen moving, alliances formed.


The lack of vision on world events that don't directly affect you can make things challenging. Now try playing in snatches on a mobile phone, and trying to learn about other places and keep up on things becomes exhausting. I've been there for long stretches over the last year.

De-Legro

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 02:11:29 AM »

The lack of vision on world events that don't directly affect you can make things challenging. Now try playing in snatches on a mobile phone, and trying to learn about other places and keep up on things becomes exhausting. I've been there for long stretches over the last year.

I play almost exclusively from a phone. If time available is a factor hen just like in BM you need to question if your current position in the game is being attended to adaquately given the time constraints. Not everyone has the time to be a ruler or manage large tracts of land while keeping things interesting.
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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 09:46:17 AM »
But it seems the characters that accept my knight offers are mostly by someone already playing, and I don't trust anyone because of the number of times it has gone bad.

Make sure you follow such actions up with staining their reputation (on their character details screen). Like all bad behaviour, this will continue as long as it is advantageous. Once the consequences for such actions outweigh the benefits, it will largely stop.

For this to work, we the players must use the reputation system better.

Calpurnius

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 02:45:52 PM »
Make sure you follow such actions up with staining their reputation (on their character details screen). Like all bad behaviour, this will continue as long as it is advantageous. Once the consequences for such actions outweigh the benefits, it will largely stop.

For this to work, we the players must use the reputation system better.

yes, that will work.
after I have been defeated and my regions taken.  I will express my frustration by saying they were bad people.
 I only wish the people I have seen this happened to would have done that, instead they quit.

I stand by how I feel.  I will gladly help a new player by granting land and soldiers, but I will not supply my enemies by freely giving away land and soldiers to his characters in my realm.
Therefore I do not make any more knight offers, or try to help the lone character who already knows how to play the game.

Too many characters with a low player base increases mistrust. I haven't stuck it out this long to allow it all to vanish by one act of deceit.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 02:58:18 PM by Calpurnius »

Andrew

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2014, 03:14:32 PM »
I'm still undecided on whether it's good or not to not know who plays what character. In other words, the lack of a player profile page. On the one hand, it makes it more interesting to not know who plays who, but on the other hand it's kind of irritating when you realize that you've given land to different characters and families controlled by the same single player.
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Calpurnius

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2014, 03:30:25 PM »
If there were more people playing with less characters, the ability to insert 10 characters into a 20 character realm and tip the balance, would be less likely.
I don't wish to know who they are, just that they have been playing for over six months and don't really need my land or help.


Tan dSerrai

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2014, 06:56:32 PM »
Personally I did like the 'you do not know who the player behind a character is'.

Still, several items make me lean ever more in favor of identifying characters with players:

- spying can be bruttally effective - knowing where the main army of an enemy realm is can be decisive.
- drones allow extremely easy full access to inner realm conversation of enemy realms
- assumed 'focus' of a player in one area/realm makes me believe that most characters placed in other realms are of lesser importance.
- 'drones' being easy to play, no cost to the player, making potentially highly effective spies.

In addition I _like_ being 'blind' in regards to the 'other side' - it makes suspense a lot more intense. Will he/she attack? Will he/she betray me? Will he/she be interested in what I could offer? What are the other sides main worries? All these questions make for a better game in my eyes. Personally I have near all my chars in one realm...and none, not a single one in potentially enemy ones.

Now, oaths: Each new character you accept as oathsworn may be a new player - or a spy. This question alone detracts a lot from the potential interest a new player may bring. Currently there is little to no gameplay advantage to accepting a new knight - but _all_ the interest the game can offer does lie with it. Having many different players in a realm is _crucial_. But each new knight brings a potentially very grave risk...and little actual advantages. Thus, do I include him in my planning? Or not? If I only include new knights in my important conversations _after_ they did prove themselves....I assume most would leave before that happens. Thus they _need_ to be included as early as possible and as fully as possible. But that risk is deadly.

So I really think we need to strengthen the mechanics that offer gameplay advantages to accepting knights. Currently there are too few. I also think that corruption ('the more estates you hold the more corruption) needs to be made a lot more severe  I also think we need a similar mechanic both for having many characters AND for having many characters of one player in one realm (and yes this would affect me a lot) - once you have more than 10 disadvantage should start, with 20 it should be very noticeable. They should only affect the player, not the realm. Its currently too easy to play 'alone' - or only with one or two other players - its a lot less dangerous in gameplay terms...but is _bad_ for the game. Interaction in a persistent world is what M&F is about.


Thus I would actually support making the players behind characters visible. Or, maybe only make new players visible (for 2-4 months?)....after some time they become anonymous. This would be a great boon to new players - as they would be trusted a lot more. Or make players behind young characters visible - once they are 6 months old, they can become anonymous....this way they would have a 'history' when joining a new realm.

Tom

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2014, 11:51:57 PM »
yes, that will work.
after I have been defeated and my regions taken.  I will express my frustration by saying they were bad people.

You can always reclaim your soldiers, so losses should be minimal.

De-Legro

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Re: Only participating when threatened?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2014, 02:18:29 AM »
You can always reclaim your soldiers, so losses should be minimal.

That depends in how long the player takes before showing their hand. Character reputation is underused in general, but it also doesn't address the whole issue. It is trivial to create a character, engage in such behaviour and then hand over all the gains to another character to escape the bad rep. It is not even that difficult to make it look like the second character took the land by conquests if you really want to also things look seperate.

That said I like the annoymous player system. It is not perfect, but then the player profile listing all characters is also not perfect. No matter how hard we try we won't be able to stop OOC info influencing or decisions (I won't attack that independant character who insulted me, because I know he plays a powerful king nearby for example)
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