Author Topic: New Permission System Design  (Read 2769 times)

Foxglove

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2014, 11:26:39 PM »
I don't have a problem with the existing format of the permission system, aside from it does take a lot of repetitive clicking to grant access for any particular characters to things. So I'm in the camp of thinking the lists system its basically fine, but could do with some reduction in the repetition.

I don't like the idea of not being able to exclude anyone I choose from entering a settlement because they've joined the realm and so get access to all settlements due to a blanket realm-wide permission giving them access. This could also lead to invasion exploits caused by people joining realms or creating characters simply to get access through the gates of all settlements and circumvent the walls. Although it would be easy to identify such an abuse, it would be better to avoid it in the first place. If it's a case of allow everyone in, or allow no-one in, it's a bit too simple to deal with the social complexities of the game.

If you do choose to move to a realm value access level for settlement entry, please at least keep some way to specifically exclude particular characters (although that in itself won't stop anyone exploiting realm value settlement access to bypass settlement walls by creating characters in-realm because it would be too difficult for a settlement owner to keep updating an exclusion list).
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WVH

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2015, 12:02:38 AM »
One of the first things I do when I meet someone in the game is click on their name to bring up character details.  The below idea in a nut shell is to provide options on that character page that can add someone to a friends/enemies list or provide access to certain permissions at least for a limited time.

Click on the character, pull down permission box, selected desired permission to grant, indicate a time frame in game days for it to remain granted.

In the same general area have another pull down relations box, selected desired relation "Confidant, Friend, Nil, Enemy, Mortal Enemy" (or what ever amount of relations is suitable).  Mortal Enemies would be attacked on sight with whatever army you have.

-

"Instead of each player making a list of enemies for each character, it may be more user friendly to have an option on a characters page to make them a friend or an enemy.  Then under your own relations it could have the entire list so that you can remove them or shows that they have died or are stricken with slumberblight.

From the realm perspective down - A ruler can change the status to war, making another realm an enemy.  Sub realm rulers adjust that status if they wish:  Accept war, Openly oppose the war or Secretly oppose the war.

An individual could then have a check box next to realm relations.  To ignore realm relations (not engage), Follow relations (engage), Betray (join enemy when engaged) or even something more fun such as Protect Friends (refuse to engage friends list).

In my opinion this makes it all more personal and user friendly.  You do not go to a lists page to add people, you do it right from their character/realm details.

Another option would be to have a pull down on the character page for assigning them to a list.  For example if someone randomly shows up at your docks and needs to use them, just go to the character details click the pull down and add them to the 'use docks' list.

Sticky Lists?  Friends, Enemies, Docks, Enter?
Sticky Relations? Obey, Disobey, Betray?"

De-Legro

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2015, 03:32:45 AM »
One of the first things I do when I meet someone in the game is click on their name to bring up character details.  The below idea in a nut shell is to provide options on that character page that can add someone to a friends/enemies list or provide access to certain permissions at least for a limited time.

Click on the character, pull down permission box, selected desired permission to grant, indicate a time frame in game days for it to remain granted.

In the same general area have another pull down relations box, selected desired relation "Confidant, Friend, Nil, Enemy, Mortal Enemy" (or what ever amount of relations is suitable).  Mortal Enemies would be attacked on sight with whatever army you have.

-

"Instead of each player making a list of enemies for each character, it may be more user friendly to have an option on a characters page to make them a friend or an enemy.  Then under your own relations it could have the entire list so that you can remove them or shows that they have died or are stricken with slumberblight.

From the realm perspective down - A ruler can change the status to war, making another realm an enemy.  Sub realm rulers adjust that status if they wish:  Accept war, Openly oppose the war or Secretly oppose the war.

An individual could then have a check box next to realm relations.  To ignore realm relations (not engage), Follow relations (engage), Betray (join enemy when engaged) or even something more fun such as Protect Friends (refuse to engage friends list).

In my opinion this makes it all more personal and user friendly.  You do not go to a lists page to add people, you do it right from their character/realm details.

Another option would be to have a pull down on the character page for assigning them to a list.  For example if someone randomly shows up at your docks and needs to use them, just go to the character details click the pull down and add them to the 'use docks' list.

Sticky Lists?  Friends, Enemies, Docks, Enter?
Sticky Relations? Obey, Disobey, Betray?"


The temporary permission sounds something like the token system Tom spoke of when we first discussed changing the permission system.


I very much like the idea of marking relationships between characters. I would suggest that we also need the option to declare such relationship information public or private. If set to public perhaps the relationship could be added as a special case to the gossip section of the character page.


 In terms of list being per character or not, I would suggest something like the current permission system. For my characters I generally make a "realm" permission list, and then each settlement has its own list that inherits the realm list. Going down this path would let your individual families (or however you separate characters among the realms you play in) to have a base list appropriate to that group, and then to make additions based on the individual interactions of each character.
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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2015, 03:53:20 PM »
If I may make one suggestion: It would be extremely helpful if we could control who can edit public lists. Until this is done, I find it very difficult to justify a public list if anyone can edit it.


Also, would it be possible to address the recipient of a message to a list? It would be tremendously helpful- added with the ability to control who can edit public lists, to send messages to certain people without going through a large list of members or people you know- I think it would be useful to realms of all sizes.

Andrew

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2015, 04:45:57 PM »
Unless I'm mistaken Public Lists aren't implemented yet, and the creator controls it, it's just available to others to use.

As for messages to lists, easily abused. I could quite quickly spam EVERY realm in the game. They're actually supposed to have permission systems of their own in their final implementation.
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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2015, 05:07:10 PM »
Ah I see. That's very helpful. The manual mentioned it so I thought it was implemented.

Ratharing

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2015, 09:36:39 PM »
I have noted that giving permission to resupply and leaving the field blank means they get to resupply ZERO hours, instead of infinite.

It would be more intuitive for it to mean unlimited supply rights, such as a blank check. Any chance of changing that?

Tom

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2015, 07:45:08 AM »
No, because default values should be safe values.

That and this topic is about changes to the system which would change this anyways.

Ehndras

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2015, 01:35:27 PM »
If positive tokens exist, I see no reason why negative tokens shouldn't. It would help with exile, as well.


"You are hereby exiled from all lands pertaining to the realm. Your entry rights have been revoked, a bounty placed upon your h-"

Oh. Ooohh.... OOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhh.... Realm-wide quests? "Such and such is an enemy of the state, I hereby offer 50 gold to whoever brings me his head."


That reminds me... Perhaps the option to take a "token" upon killing an enemy, as proof, like they used to do in older times? I'd love to rub Asran DeadKing's ear, ring-finger, or severed head in some people's faces... ;) Helps with proving you actually killed someone, too. Especially for quests!


Hell, I'd add a frivolous mechanic where you can wear certain small bodyparts and be displayed on you for all to see. Severed ear / finger / testicle necklace, anyone? Or mounting severed heads upon pikes, to be displayed upon entering a settlement. Minor, one or two line things that would greatly expand upon the customization options and beautification of the game. Trophy room, anyone? I for one am still waiting for the level of detail we have for region descriptions & statistics like in Battlemaster... :)
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Cipheron

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2017, 03:46:49 AM »
Hey, any chance of improvements to permissions system, Andrew?

One thing Tom mentioned in the OP was the possibility of automatic permissions for all a player's characters.

One way to do that without breaking the system might be to merely have a hidden list that automatically updates to hold all your living characters, and have that list automatically applied to each town, but hidden. This would simplify things like Tom suggested but without changing much of the underlying game code.

Tom's idea of having hidden "default lists" related to each realm/subrealm is also a really good one, and just changing the front-end so that you can set permission-levels for an entire list at once.

~~~

The other reason I wanted to necro this thread is that a question arose in-game which could require an actual useful addition to the permissions system.

It would be great if it was possible to specify permissions for a combination of realm / position as well as realm / person.  This would serve multiple purposes:

- permissions wouldn't need to be edited when assigning new people
- it would be clear who has which permissions from their titles
- can be rescinded as needed via demotion from the titles

This would strongly encourage creating special permissions based on titles rather than on individuals, which could streamline things a lot and make new types of organization practical in-game, while being a cheap way of adding more meaning to user-created titles.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 03:54:58 AM by Cipheron »

De-Legro

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2017, 04:01:30 AM »
Hey, any chance of improvements to permissions system, Andrew?

One thing Tom mentioned in the OP was the possibility of automatic permissions for all a player's characters.

One way to do that without breaking the system might be to merely have a hidden list that automatically updates to hold all your living characters, and have that list automatically applied to each town, but hidden. This would simplify things like Tom suggested but without changing much of the underlying game code.

Tom's idea of having hidden "default lists" related to each realm/subrealm is also a really good one, and just changing the front-end so that you can set permission-levels for an entire list at once.

~~~

The other reason I wanted to necro this thread is that a question arose in-game which could require an actual useful addition to the permissions system.

It would be great if it was possible to specify permissions for a combination of realm / position as well as realm / person.  This would serve multiple purposes:

- permissions wouldn't need to be edited when assigning new people
- it would be clear who has which permissions from their titles
- can be rescinded as needed via demotion from the titles

This would strongly encourage creating special permissions based on titles rather than on individuals, which could streamline things a lot and make new types of organization practical in-game, while being a cheap way of adding more meaning to user-created titles.

The first request makes little sense when you consider there is no reason characters from a single player are all tied together and allied.  Besides which how often do you create a new character? How much time does it take to change a single list when you create a new character? Perhaps I misunderstand the request.

As to titles it is a long term Todo item for them to be part of the permission and message systems.
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Cipheron

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2017, 04:33:24 AM »
The first request makes little sense when you consider there is no reason characters from a single player are all tied together and allied.  Besides which how often do you create a new character? How much time does it take to change a single list when you create a new character? Perhaps I misunderstand the request.

As to titles it is a long term Todo item for them to be part of the permission and message systems.

I was just voicing support for Tom's plan in the OP for this thread, he outlined what I talked about. The reasoning is that if a player can do something at no cost then it should probably be set up for you instead of needing to go through a bunch of logistical hurdles.

The point is that automatically assigning a "my characters list" which is hidden+default means you don't need a list for that, at all. And by automatically applying that list to each province, you don't need to ever edit permissions for each town to merely let your own characters in. So it's not just once per new character, it removes the need to edit in each of those permissions every time you take or re-take a town. It's not an unfair advantage, since you could do it anyway if you were enough of a grognard. It levels the playing field and removes some unnecessary bookkeeping from play.

It would mainly benefit new players, since they wouldn't have to learn the permissions system before they can have their own characters interacting with each other's settlements. Anything that reduces the amount of game knowledge which must be front-loaded for no real benefit is better for player retention.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:56:29 AM by Cipheron »

De-Legro

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 04:55:51 AM »
I was just voicing support for Tom's plan in the OP for this thread, he outlined what I talked about. The reasoning is that if a player can do something at no cost then it should probably be set up for you instead of needing to go through a bunch of logistical hurdles.

The point is that automatically assigning a "my characters list" which is hidden+default means you don't need a list for that, at all. And by automatically applying that list to each province, you don't need to ever edit permissions for each town to merely let your own characters in. So it's not just once per new character, it removes the need to edit in each of those permissions every time you take or re-take a town. It's not an unfair advantage, since you could do it anyway if you were enough of a grognard. It levels the playing field and removes unnecessary bookkeeping from play.

It would mainly benefit new players, since they wouldn't have to learn the permissions system before they can have their own characters interacting with each other's settlements. Anything that reduces the amount of game knowledge which must be front-loaded for no real benefit is better for player retention.

A better way to handle that would be to set up a defualt permission system for each character, that is then applied to any settlement he owns. You might need tongue there divide it down by realms as some characters have holdings in multiple realms. This way my EI character would not automatically and forever have access to all my Hawks settlements as if he was a full Hawk member.

Still you need a way overrule the list for special cases. I think the .ore you flesh out the entire concept the more it becomes a bunch of edge cases to handle for relatively little gain.
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Andrew

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2017, 10:14:42 AM »
I'm on the fence about a hidden "my characters" list, because I can imagine people using it, and people not using it, in different situations. I don't think it'd be hard to code, though, without creating a hidden list--just add a check in the dispatcher somewhere to check to see if this character belongs to the same user. The only downside is that you'd have to add it to EVERY place permissions are checked.

That said, we could make it a settlement option to allow same user characters entrance. Or we could make it a player setting that each user can toggle.
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Cipheron

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2017, 06:48:24 AM »
I'm on the fence about a hidden "my characters" list, because I can imagine people using it, and people not using it, in different situations. I don't think it'd be hard to code, though, without creating a hidden list--just add a check in the dispatcher somewhere to check to see if this character belongs to the same user. The only downside is that you'd have to add it to EVERY place permissions are checked.

Well that's why I was thinking a hidden list would simplify things.

- Make the list automatically for new accounts. This should only happen in one place in the code.
- When you create a new character, add them to the list
- when a character dies, delete them from the list
- when you gain control of a settlement, add in permissions for the list

basically this only needs to add code in where things change, not all places that might check permissions. It piggy-backs on already-existing and known working code. it's always better to layer a new system on existing systems than to write special exceptions. Much easier to debug.