Author Topic: New Permission System Design  (Read 2379 times)

Tom

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New Permission System Design
« on: December 06, 2014, 10:50:24 AM »
This is a continuation of the old topic, which was derailed and got lost.

The problem to be solved: The current permission system with lists is unwieldy.

Solution: Change it.


How? Here's how:

Lists are cute and powerful, but hard to manage. Let's reduce them to the majority of cases they are actually used for and make those easier. Then add a front-end to hide the details unless you want them explicitly.


The vision:

For every realm (including its sub-realms), you set one value, its "access level" to the settlement. The details of which permission goes where, exactly, we should discuss here, but the rough idea is:
  • enter settlement
  • use "free" infrastructure like docks (i.e. things that cost the settlement owner nothing)
  • limited resupply, maybe very limited recruitment (entourage only, low numbers?) - basically, at this level the settlement gives a bit of support to the realm.
  • full resupply and recruitment - at this level, the settlement is a military base for the realm
In addition to this, the settlement owner can also set global reserves for each building, in a few levels from nothing to everything. This way he can give his realm full access, except to chain mail which he reserves for himself (ideally, these reserves would also restrict people from recruiting militia equipped with the restricted items).



And that's almost it. Very easy to understand and manage. There is only two additional things, which I mentioned before:



First, all permissions should automatically apply to all your characters. You should not have to create a "my family" list and manage it. The thinking is that you could give permission to your own characters so why stop you with bureaucracy?

Second, for visiting ambassadors, or characters in your family tree that are not your own, you can give personal access rights that have a time limit (which can be very long). Just to make things more interesting, I'm thinking about whether or not they can be cancelled once given out. It would make it slightly more convenient if they were (you can give friends very long tokens, and cancel them when they betray you), but from the game logic these things would be letters from the lord saying "the bearer of this letter may..." - so you can't cancel them, and it makes trust more valuable, and long-term tokens more meaningful.
These tokens would use the same access levels as for realms.





Tell me below what you think and what I've missed.

Andre

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 09:04:02 PM »
Would this let us still restrict certain people in your realm even though they are part of the realm? Say that you are not a big friend of him and dont want to give him the same rights as the rest of the realm. 
And i would want to still be able to manage how many recruits they can recruit, or entourage for the limited and full access things, though that they would have standard values if you did not want to get into that? How does this sound?

Valast

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 10:04:44 PM »
Will tokens be granted prior to the noble arriving at the town?  For example if I am being besieged and waiting for help to arrive that would not already have permission to enter...I would not like to see them stuck outside the gates where they could be engaged in battle before I the player wake up to give a token.

So if arrival at the city gates is the prompt to grant a token... I would prefer it be rethought.

Tom

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 01:29:09 PM »
Will tokens be granted prior to the noble arriving at the town?

Almost certainly, yes. Exact details are subject to change, but I am thinking about your scenario as well as dozens of others.

Tom

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 01:30:58 PM »
Would this let us still restrict certain people in your realm even though they are part of the realm?

No, this ability would be lost.

Andre

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2014, 03:01:33 PM »
No, this ability would be lost.



Then i am not sure i like it that much, this cant be too simplified, otherwise it would become too much realm scale in my opinion, when Might and Fealty really should be more about character interaction, atleast thats how it seems to me.

cenrae

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 08:31:32 PM »
I would not want the ability to NOT limit some of my own realm to enter and use my settlements resources. Nearly every realm I am in I have others I do no like or wish to aid at all.
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Tom

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2014, 09:09:23 PM »
You can simply deny the realm the permission and tell them to get rid of the people you don't like, and until then you'll hand out individual or sub-realm permissions only.

Tan dSerrai

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 10:51:16 AM »
I like the lists system.

I would think that a simplification of the 'enter/resupply/mobilize troops/...' diversification could be worth it. Still, I very much want to have the option to exclude certain nobles (even from my own family!) from gaining access.

Having inner-realm friction is a really important part of the game....and having 'only' the choices of 'agree to enter, resupply and all else' and 'begone from this realm' would diminish this game. I would be hesitant towards anything that moves the game from the character-centric feuds towards realm (or player) centric feuds.

So: Aye, maybe combine the _different_ access types somehow....but keep the lists. You can already do a simple 'realm x may do this and that'...so those who want to use only this simple part can already do so. Those who want to differentiate between different chars should retain the option to do so.

Andre

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 12:48:27 PM »
If you do keep the current system with some changes, i think a small tip saying that you can enter either a realm name to give the whole realm the same access, or individual character names to give only them access, or no access even if they are in an allowed realm. I at first thought i would have to write the character name and then the realm they were part of for it to work.

Tom

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 01:06:52 PM »
Maybe the lists aren't too bad and just need a more user-friendly interface, is that what you're all saying?

Andre

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 01:23:47 PM »
Pretty sure yeah, maybe a few simplifications too but pretty much just some tips on how to use them or something in game.

cenrae

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 04:44:32 PM »
yes it needs to be clear that realm name is only needed if you want the entire realm to have the permission. That was confusing for me as well long ago.
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Valast

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2014, 09:01:29 PM »
Hmmm... If we have tokens for granting permissions, maybe a token to exclude an individual from permissions would work?

If it were up to me I would add some way for a character to generate a message seeking permission for something.  That way it comes in as an event... and when it does come in it could have an allow button.  Clicking the allow button could give permission for a one day pass (or some short time span)

The biggest problem with the system is it requires too much work to allow someone to enter.  If a diplomat shows up at my gate they have to request permission to enter, I have to modify my "allowed to enter" list (which is too cumbersome to have one for each character so I have one for the whole family) and then update permissions and then send a message back to them.

Would be great to have an automatic message that you can add a bit to but not have to go through all the steps to send/allow.

Tom

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Re: New Permission System Design
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2014, 10:52:17 PM »
Yes, the alternative here is to use the realm/tokens system and allow for negative tokens that if you "have" them take a permission away that you otherwise could have.