Author Topic: North Spear  (Read 8998 times)

Tan dSerrai

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North Spear
« on: September 24, 2014, 09:47:21 PM »
I would like to offer some information on North Spear...this is intended as IC information that has percolated to other realms via 'rumors'. You can treat it as knowledge or rumor, as you see fit.

The reason for this information is to avoid a(nother) scare of 'omg they are coming and will ruin everyones fun'


North Spear is a loose collection of clans. We do not have a single ruler, the 'emperor' is only a speaker holding a ceremonial office. Power rests with the clanleaders. Clans can (and should...sigh) war and raid each other....they only should declare that they are doing so. Clans only defend each other if one is in danger of being obliterated....otherwise each clan should look to its own defense. Clans could help each other if one is being attacked by the outside. However, if a clan attacks someone, and gets kicked in the butt, thats the clans problem. We emphaticall do NOT want a 'unified' front that is too strong to challenge.


Now: We (as players) have talked long on how to revive the north - while giving others something to do as well AND while doing our best to 'not ruin anyones fun'. The shattering of Rathgar after the second southern raid/war did end near all politics, near all interaction between the clans...and near all interaction with the clans and anyone to the south. I think we can agree that this is not an ideal state of being. But how to revive the north while avoiding the 'omg overpowered!' scare?

Well, we are now (starting) to do the following:

- We consider the 5 founding clans of North Spear 'Free Clans': Sklodding, Valinor, Northmanni, Beals Song and Serrai. More can be added later.
- Each Free Clan has one vote on the 'main council' (need a name for that).
- We will attempt to unify the north, by diplomacy or the blade (homelands will be honored)
- Any clan/realm joining now will be a 'New Clan' (or however we'll name them). New clans do not have a vote on the council and pay (light) tribute to North Spear (not to a single clan). Otherwise they have all rights as Free Clans.

Now, most important: If we war to force someone to join North Spear: HE WILL NOT LOOSE ESTATES. We will make war, conquer estates - but once that realm or clan agrees to join and pay tribute, all estates will be handed back.

This offers several items: It gives anyone a choice - pay light tribute and continue as he is, or fight - and if loosing, simply state 'halt' and receive all taken estates back. It also gives any 'forcefully joined' clan/realm the sterling opportunity for diplomatic sheenanigans behind North Spears back, intriguing to 'break away' from North Spear. We do not yet have a clear idea on what to do if someone breaks away....we want that possibility to be there, so any break should not be answered by all out war. Ideas are welcome.


So: I humbly ask that this be read with an open mind. Again, we intend that only soldiers are lost - not estates. We want to give players something...a threat to fight against, something to unite against, something to do WHILE not being threatened with extinction - or even serious loss. We want to see some life in the north, life that is fun. We want to see where our idea might end up, what will develop.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 10:00:36 PM by Tan dSerrai »

Valast

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2014, 10:42:24 PM »
It is a natural progression that with a culture like Rathgar... being aggressive and honoring the strong (and in parts like Valinor where the Gods are honored through battle)... that some realm or noble will make a move to take the place of the Order/Rathgar.  North Spear is doing this.  I would have done it myself with a union of Stonedlands and Valinor had the idea taken root.

This is going to make things change.  It is going to force those large armies that have not been doing much to take action or to bend knee.  Like Tan said, it is not a united front of paint the map of the world... huge armies of the North are not going to march on the South.  That would go against the RP of the North.  Instead the goal of North Spear (as I see it) is to unite the former realms of Rathgar.

The goal of me as a player... is to see the huge Northern armies wiped out in a sweet set of RP events that follow right in line with what should have been taking place the moment Rathgar fell.

Alumaani

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2014, 01:26:47 PM »
North Spear is a loose collection of clans. We do not have a single ruler, the 'emperor' is only a speaker holding a ceremonial office. Power rests with the clanleaders. Clans can (and should...sigh) war and raid each other....they only should declare that they are doing so. Clans only defend each other if one is in danger of being obliterated....otherwise each clan should look to its own defense. Clans could help each other if one is being attacked by the outside. However, if a clan attacks someone, and gets kicked in the butt, thats the clans problem. We emphaticall do NOT want a 'unified' front that is too strong to challenge.


This doesn't make sense...Rathgar was created at the start of the game and North Spear was created at the same time.  From the outset of the game you intended to dominate with this realm as you carried it over from the alpha with your previous allies and you gathered together in a unified banner attacking ONLY the clans in the west...us.  This was discussed at the beginning and dismissed by Tan and Bal as paranoia, but it's actions belied this stance and forced the western clans together for a defensive alliance.  Rathgar was the unified clans and stood for everything you claim for North Spear, a loose unification of clans, actual interclan conflict and no one leader yet North Spear did not accept this and dominated the north. 


North Spear is NOT a loose collection of clans, it is a collection of clans that does not do battle with one another but focuses outside of it's borders and towards it's neighbours which has been proven by the very history of the realm from it's initial creation.  It has always targeted the clans in the West and the Empire in the south as well as the isles, never has it attacked it's member clans...Never.  Your claims are at best are misguided.


Now: We (as players) have talked long on how to revive the north - while giving others something to do as well AND while doing our best to 'not ruin anyones fun'. The shattering of Rathgar after the second southern raid/war did end near all politics, near all interaction between the clans...and near all interaction with the clans and anyone to the south. I think we can agree that this is not an ideal state of being. But how to revive the north while avoiding the 'omg overpowered!' scare?


Not with me you haven't, nobody has discussed this with me and I think only stonedman in the west was included in the 'discussion' which was in fact a list of demands listed below, no discussion though, that was North Spear who had the discussion and decided what was best for the north from their perspective.


Well, we are now (starting) to do the following:

- We consider the 5 founding clans of North Spear 'Free Clans': Sklodding, Valinor, Northmanni, Beals Song and Serrai. More can be added later.
- Each Free Clan has one vote on the 'main council' (need a name for that).
- We will attempt to unify the north, by diplomacy or the blade (homelands will be honored)
- Any clan/realm joining now will be a 'New Clan' (or however we'll name them). New clans do not have a vote on the council and pay (light) tribute to North Spear (not to a single clan). Otherwise they have all rights as Free Clans.


This goes against all that Rathgar is and was, no one clan should dominate all unless by the force of their own arms, the unification of clans under a banner shows the weakness of those clans who have bent their knees.  I am surprised by Valinor who's clan epitomized Rathgar in my view, to now suggest that uniting under the North Spear banner is a sign of strength is perplexing to me whilst I am in the Rathgar mindset.


Now, most important: If we war to force someone to join North Spear: HE WILL NOT LOOSE ESTATES. We will make war, conquer estates - but once that realm or clan agrees to join and pay tribute, all estates will be handed back.


And here we see the clear picture of what is really behind this move, tribute.  Where will the tribute go?  I have no doubt that Tan will have selected some one elses town so that he cannot be accused of Empire building, I have no doubt that he will also nominate another member of North Spear to lead the Empire for the same reason, but what this all boils down to is Empire building under the premise of a united north and a happy collection of clans paying tribute. 


Please understand that I am not against this move, it makes strategic sense and if I was ruling in the North I would probably try to do the same thing OOC.  What I don't like is the OOC influence attempted in these posts to paint the situation as anything other than it is and will always voice my opinion against this.  My view is that D'Serrai is building an Empire and we can all see that, to disguise it IG is brilliant as it is testament to the cunning of his character, on the forums however, lets drop the facade and the propoganda and just tell it how it is, or better still, refrain from posting about it from the outset.




Tan dSerrai

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2014, 02:28:07 PM »
Alumaani,

I (as player) give you my solemn word that the current war is NOT due to any desire on my part to build an empire. I have too many estates and do not want more. I also most emphatically do not want to be responsible for an empire. I give you my word that the initial idea and the current main drive are not due to me. I give you my word that I take part mainly to _give_ something to this game. I also give you my word that I am not the 'leader' of North Spear.

Your characters may believe whatever they want, but please do not accuse me as player to use the forum as ooc place to gain any advantage ingame. This is quite simply not the case. Ignore my post, have your own thoughts on it, have your own opinion of it - but please, please do not accuse me of ooc sheenanigans. Actually I would have preferred that knowledge of all internals regarding North Spear percolate through the game IC (including all misunderstanding and propaganda). However, my experience of this was so bad (both Rathgar scares plus assorted Rathgar raid scares) that I thought it better to give some background information.

The whole background information is aimed at preventing a scare. That is all. It is not an attempt to argue our case here on the forum, it is not an attempt to paint us as 'Good guys', it is not an attempt for any political advantage. Think of North Spear as evil, think of them as aggressors, all that is fine. Fight them, hate them, all fine. Doubt their motives, doubt their character, aim to kill them, all that is fine. But please give me as player the benefit of doubt - and do not accuse me OOC of what you are accusing me of.

I admit this reaction is worse than I had feared. Tan is played as a haughty character and I can understand other chars hating him. But the level of hate is quite surprising. I also admit as player that I am being quite disheartened. I had thought this to be a (largely) good idea. If it already leads to a discussion such as this, I am beginning to doubt.

Andrew

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2014, 03:45:51 PM »
Lets just let the Rathgari clan war play out.

I suspect many of us are aware of other interested parties who may try to take advantage of the situation. The Stoned Lands refuse to submit to North Spear demands. The Stoned Lands have treaties outside Rathgar. Would they use them? Who knows (I doubt it honestly). Both North Spear and The Stoned Lands have raided the Grand Fate. None of the raids may have gotten very far, but I doubt anyone appreciates them. Of course, there's also the Imperium nearby, and I doubt they ever want to see a united Rathgar.

Lets assume that North Spear wins and somehow subjugates The Stoned Lands. The former clansmen disperse to wherever or quit or what have you. You now have a united Rathgar that will set it's site on the most easily accessible enemy: Ascalon or Erstes Imperium.

Alternatively, lets assume that The Stoned Lands are willing to get help from an outsider and request aid of Ascalon and that Ascalon aids them. The balance of power is shifted a little. Enough? Maybe. The numbers would support this, in fact, the combined force of Ascalon and The Stoned Lands would put in them behind only EI.

You could also assume that maybe the Imperium would take advantage of North Spear advancing west in order to expand the Imperial border northwards, maybe finally claim vengeance for the raids early game.

Every realm that has been raided by Rathgar has incentive to not see a united Rathgar. If there's only two major clans left, and those two clans have gone to war, then all those realms have interest to not see this war victorious on either side.

Regardless, the pieces are already in motion. If Rathgar unites, every nearby realm will want to ally up with any major power that will take them. If North Spear manages to take all of The Stoned Lands, they'll be the largest or second largest realm in the game by estates, population, and size, depending on where the individual pieces fall. If they fail to subjugate any of The Stoned Lands clans, they'll almost immediately be torn apart by the combined armies of the Erstes Imperium and/or the Grand Fate and/or Ascalon the moment they step outside of any of their new lands just by sheer numbers.

For the record, as of a couple weeks ago, factoring in Valinor's joining North Spear the numbers are something like this...

EI: 161 estates, 197 nobles
GF: 144 estates, 158 nobles
NS: 126 estates, 157 nobles
Ascalon: 82 estates, 82 nobles
TSL: 72 estates, 84 nobles

I for one, am curious to see how this all plays out, in game. An occasionally uniting Rathgar could actually be good for the game.
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Re: North Spear
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 04:21:11 PM »
I too welcome this as an IC event, and have always since long preferred OOC discussion of events to prevent players starting to get annoyed by eachother instead of characters. I am looking forwards to how the conflict will build up and welcome it a lot, since eversince acitivty inside Ascalon has flared up enormously.

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Tan dSerrai

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2014, 05:06:09 PM »
@Andrew:
Some additional thoughts: North Spear could have well warred EI or Ascalon or whomever before this current conflict - the strength is there. Did we do it? No. Why? Several reasons, none of them having to do with the Stoned Lands. Thus it is not necessary to war Stoned Lands first to be able to attack EI. The reason for this conflict is not to gain power to be able to war south.

Due to this the 'risk' of conflict between North Spear and EI (for example) will not rise _as result of a potentially winning North Spear_. The risk was always there and will continue to be there, no matter the current conflict. Aye, it may change, but not significantly so. In addition, I expect a great number of soldiers to die....so the actual _threat_ to other realms will diminish, at least for a game year or more.

In addition, again, it is wrong to think of North Spear as one unity. Aye, it has one color on the map. Thinking that North Spear acts as one is very, very wrong. Its seductively easy, aye. We took ages to come to an agreement internally even trying to offer the Stoned Lands to 'bend the knee' or to engage them. Personally as (again for example) EI I would concentrate on the clans a lot more than on North Spear.

Still, aye, we hope to shake up things somewhat. Though please remember that none wants or plans to eradicate or even half the strength of somone.

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2014, 06:28:35 PM »
...carried it over from the alpha with your previous allies and you gathered together in a unified banner attacking ONLY the clans in the west...us.

Well, that is part true.  I played in the Alpha and was beaten by North Spear and then joined them.  *shrug* it was that exp. that helped me realize I liked the idea of a tribal/war culture in the game.  So I went into the North to play in the guided start.  My location in that was not at first where Valinor is.  It was over on the other side of the Moorkanni (again with the damn spelling)...but I moved when I found out where the restrictions would be in place for settlements, and moved to the north side of the lake.

It has always targeted the clans in the West and the Empire in the south as well as the isles, never has it attacked it's member clans...Never.  Your claims are at best are misguided.

Well, that is part true also.  However for ME it is more about how things played.  When Valinor went on raids in the South and Islands... we were ALL IN.  We took our entire army down there and starved half of them on the way.  Then we fought for gold and limped home with what ever rag tag warriors were left.  Then the sleeping sickness set in.  I have an RP that ties us in with Bear's Stone and the Reach... most all of them were zzz so I started a war to take it over and "protect it".  Again, it was nothing to do with North Spear or anyone else... it was Valinor RP.  Stonedman only became involved in that because of RP requests.  It was later on that I found out Tan was raiding him at the same time... we did not coordinate it.

Not with me you haven't, nobody has discussed this with me and I think only stonedman in the west was included in the 'discussion' which was in fact a list of demands listed below, no discussion though, that was North Spear who had the discussion and decided what was best for the north from their perspective.

Why would we discuss it with Alumaani?  You fled the North as far as John Van Valen knows.  Your family has not treated Valinor well with attacking its heartland... then that noble never returning to fulfill his requirement of serving the Valen family.  John considers most of the Alumaani as a step away from Nithing.

This goes against all that Rathgar is and was, no one clan should dominate all unless by the force of their own arms, the unification of clans under a banner shows the weakness of those clans who have bent their knees.  I am surprised by Valinor who's clan epitomized Rathgar in my view, to now suggest that uniting under the North Spear banner is a sign of strength is perplexing to me whilst I am in the Rathgar mindset.

North Spear is working to replace the Order.  A council of Kings with one at the head who can change quickly to another.  Valinor lost its war for the reach because Stonedman had a huge army.  Same reason Valinor has left the Moorkaani and Tan alone.  They outmatch Valinor because of our raids in the south taking up so much time and warriors.  So Valinor lost that war and because of it was weak.  It really could not step up into the world stage and unite nations under it in that state... Otherwise we would be seeing a Valinor/Stonedman empire working to unite the North.  This is just the way it played out.  We got beat... When North Spear fractures at some point (if they make the North united or not) perhaps Valinor will have another shot.  Time will tell.

Where will the tribute go?

Tan wants the Tribute to go to a central National settlement.  Somewhere in the middle.  John wants the tribute to go to his own lands, at least for a while.  Not sure what anyone else thinks.  John is about to offer Bear's Stone, under the leadership of his Son the child of Bear's mistress, to have control of that settlement.  (hope everyone sees the ambition in the Father, pushing the son... and tying in the early RP of Bear and Valhilda.

Please understand that I am not against this move, it makes strategic sense and if I was ruling in the North I would probably try to do the same thing OOC.  What I don't like is the OOC influence attempted in these posts to paint the situation as anything other than it is and will always voice my opinion against this.

I know what you mean.  But the point is it was not Tan's idea to post this here... it was OURS.  We looked at the history of gripes when anything like what is taking place happens...and figured we had better put it here for everyone to see and to discuss.  It is importaint!  Granted the post is a half tie in between IC and OOC... but it was written to help everyone see what is going on and be transparent.

This is not some clan effort, we are not all sitting around on skype laughing at everything.  We are just trying to play the game and do what our characters do.  You will see this if John Van Valen dies...assuming one of my characters is elected to rule which may not be the case.

Bottom line is this is happening.  It needs to happen.  We are talking about THOUSANDS of warriors when we add up all sides.  Why has no big war taken place before in the North?  It needs it.

After North Spear comes and goes... some new empire will try to unite the North.  That is how the RP here is supposed to work.  The Southern realms should look at it and plot how to bring down what ever empire comes up...because it will keep rathgar fighting and plotting here insead of raiding them.  So it becomes a balance act for them, how to let things play out just enough to weaken all but not enough to unite the North.

If they do it well, then the North is always busy.  If they fail then they suffer raids.  *shrug* everything seems to be going well into the fun level of chaos.  But you and others are going to have to let go of this idea that there is an evil North Spear clan.  Like Tan or dont...not my concern... but man play the game!

PanH

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 08:04:05 PM »
After North Spear comes and goes... some new empire will try to unite the North.  That is how the RP here is supposed to work.  The Southern realms should look at it and plot how to bring down what ever empire comes up...because it will keep rathgar fighting and plotting here insead of raiding them.  So it becomes a balance act for them, how to let things play out just enough to weaken all but not enough to unite the North.
Honestly, even if the NS or Stonedman wins the war and unites the north, it'll never reaches the level of Rathgar, first because the war will dry us out, and secondly, because a realm where one side is submitted to the other will never be stable. Personnally, I'd like it more if there was more unvoluntary vassals, because it weakens the "big realms" more, with less always loyal vassals, and make the way for much more RP. The game could be more interesting if realm could really expand and fall, not taking lands from players, but subjugating them.

Cynic

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 08:17:10 PM »
The game could be more interesting if realm could really expand and fall, not taking lands from players, but subjugating them.

Completely agree - Will wait to see how this war turns out, but the current game mechanics seem to make it too easy to just remove uncooperative conquered Lords from settlements you want to control.

Valast

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 08:30:28 PM »
Completely agree - Will wait to see how this war turns out, but the current game mechanics seem to make it too easy to just remove uncooperative conquered Lords from settlements you want to control.

I think it is up to us as players to see this problem and try to not let it BE a problem.  Player code of ethics sort of thing but to each their own.

PanH that is what we are trying to do :) not take the lands, but to do that people can not have a all or nothing defense.  It is the same catch that has cause problems in BM also... "I refuse to give in to your demands even though you have beaten me in battle and politics" always leads to "ok then we will remove you from the situation".

Anyway I think we are moving toward a culture that allows vassals to pick up and move their loyalty to another realm (with war or without) but the game has proven to be very slow in development.  Part of that is a fear of "how strong are these people I am about to attack" but I hope this war will help to level the armies a bit.

After all, if you have a war with 2 or 3 thousand heavy infantry going on... it is going to get bloody.

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2014, 08:49:45 PM »
Yeah ok I can see the need to post an overview but perhaps it would have been better sharing the overview OOC with those you are about to crush?  You highlight my text on discussing the matters with me but despite what you say the Alumaani are still in the North and they hold their heartlands and many other settlements.  My response was to the suggestion that this had been discussed at length and my presumption was that you were suggesting it was discussed arena wide, obviously not.  My view is that if you are wanting to reduce the level of OOC fear and complaints then perhaps discuss the event with the otherside first and release a joint statement, otherwise whats the point?  It becomes PR.


I'll stress again that I am up for this, the world will continue to change and our characters legacies can go on forever.  The events that occur which are historic or catastrophic are only blips in the history of an age. 


It makes sense, lets rock.

Alumaani

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2014, 09:02:10 PM »
and Tan, I respect you as a player and no you work hard on the game and new players, respect for that.  You are competitive though and having had a war with you I know just how far you will go to win so forgive me if I occasionally suspect you of a little too much enthusiasm, it's not personal and certainly not meant to hurt your feelings.

Valast

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2014, 09:46:30 PM »
That is a good point.  Sharing things in advance and all.  I think there is a bit too much competition at least in the North.  I am guilty of that myself... for example until I read what you wrote, I did not see any fault in what was being done.  Now I get it.  It would have been nice to talk about things and discuss how to get to it as peers rather than playing against each other...

Then again, you hit the nail on the head as for why it did not happen that way.  Competition.  There will always be someone to twist the discussions going on and take ooc information and turn it to IC defense changes because of things said.  Maybe the discussion just spawns the idea that you need more allies and so you spend time finding them.

United RP is difficult between rivals.  Tipping off a rival could change the course of history if that rival uses the information.

But yes, we could have used IC messages to lead up to the idea of what was coming. All in all, we can all use some work on communication and team playing.

Stonedman

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Re: North Spear
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2014, 10:22:03 PM »



I agree that "something" was needed to liven things up.in essence, the reason that this approach has led where we are is......


Because it is the same old group of eastern clans trying to gang up and subjugate the western clans. As they always have done, under the "perceived" leadership of Tan D'serrai, who has made enemies of many people, whereas the other clan leaders are not seen in such a light.


It's the same old Northspear who has so often fought against what used to be Tor Agrithar.


If it had been a different co-operative working together, it may not have been seen in the same light.


Anyway, one way or another, the North will no longer be the military force it currently is.
Many thousands of troops will be killed, and the last 6 ish months of effort wiped out.