Author Topic: Future of the Trade Guilds  (Read 2123 times)

Andrew

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Future of the Trade Guilds
« on: July 19, 2014, 02:59:55 PM »
So, my interest in running the trade guilds has waned for quite a while now, and it's literally just me anymore.

If anyone wants to run the Duskport or Tempus Merchant Guilds, speak up. It's just me in them anymore, and if I'm to be able to find time to make the game interesting, I can't be everywhere.

As for the Free Merchant Fleet in the isles, I'll probably just shutter it. Voranant will probably end up a peice of Iuna. Not sure about the Katamont area, though I suspect De Legro might have an opinion on it.
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De-Legro

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 03:23:53 PM »
So, my interest in running the trade guilds has waned for quite a while now, and it's literally just me anymore.

If anyone wants to run the Duskport or Tempus Merchant Guilds, speak up. It's just me in them anymore, and if I'm to be able to find time to make the game interesting, I can't be everywhere.

As for the Free Merchant Fleet in the isles, I'll probably just shutter it. Voranant will probably end up a peice of Iuna. Not sure about the Katamont area, though I suspect De Legro might have an opinion on it.


Katamont? Too far from my personal holdings to care, but two of my vassals control estates near there. Wonder if they would be willing to compete with each other to gain it.
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Tom

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 08:35:01 PM »
Just put them on a backburner for a while. I plan to add support for guilds and such via a change to the realm system (so they will work exactly like realms, but without land), but I can't do everything at once.

Zandar

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 05:17:55 AM »
Just put them on a backburner for a while. I plan to add support for guilds and such via a change to the realm system (so they will work exactly like realms, but without land), but I can't do everything at once.

Even with that the guilds would not work as is. There simply isn't enough demand for trade outside of ones realm, or perhaps it is too difficult to set up. 90% of trades that I see are a single player moving goods around their own estates, the other 10% tend to be the local metal supplier sending metal everywhere.

Tom

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 08:55:14 AM »
Even with that the guilds would not work as is. There simply isn't enough demand for trade outside of ones realm, or perhaps it is too difficult to set up. 90% of trades that I see are a single player moving goods around their own estates, the other 10% tend to be the local metal supplier sending metal everywhere.

I'm still working on balancing resources so that there's actually demand. I just have too many things to do and balance is tricky, so I move slowly on it. I just ran a 2nd round of rebalance, but it likely won't be the last (though the changes will get smaller).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 10:14:16 AM by Tom »

De-Legro

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 09:13:06 AM »
I'm still working on balancing resources so that there's actually demand. I just have too many things to do and balance is tricky, so I move slowly on it.

If you mean rebalancing distribution, I doubt that will fix things. In general people can ignore everything but food. Conflict simply is not at the scale where I think most people notice the recruitment and other penalities. It's not so much the finite demand that needs tweaking in my opinion, but the incentives to bother at all. In real life for instance you can't just sit on a food surlpus and generate more population without consequence. Nor does doing so automatically correspond to increased productivity. Perhaps your idea about population density and food production will change things though.

The fact you can send return goods now without having to travel should have created more demand for inter realm trade though. In my experience the large travel commitment was the biggest problem, a trade guild willing to do the leg work should make sense now.

Another thing that would improve the situation is being able to use people's settlements as depots. Being able to set up a warehouse in someone else's settlement that would give a trade guild diplomacy requirements in order to secure warehouses along their trade routes, and further eliminate their need to hold land. As the settlement holder can still bar entry, they have options to disrupt trade should they need to. Give them the hostile option to raid the warehouse, taking any stored goods and potentially "claiming" the incoming trades and you have new reasons for conflict.
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Tom

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 09:42:15 AM »
If you mean rebalancing distribution, I doubt that will fix things. In general people can ignore everything but food. Conflict simply is not at the scale where I think most people notice the recruitment and other penalities. It's not so much the finite demand that needs tweaking in my opinion, but the incentives to bother at all.

We will see. Production for most goods was way above demand, on the order of 2x - that is no longer the case. Let's see if this changes anything. Especially for wood that can dramatically lengthen your building times.

De-Legro

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 10:50:00 AM »
We will see. Production for most goods was way above demand, on the order of 2x - that is no longer the case. Let's see if this changes anything. Especially for wood that can dramatically lengthen your building times.

Problem with building times is that are not a every day issue. When first building up sure. I've not had much problem with losing infrastructure in war, by if the new looting option does reasonable damage to buildings perhaps that will provide a bigger need for quick building.
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Andrew

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2014, 11:42:10 AM »
Just put them on a backburner for a while. I plan to add support for guilds and such via a change to the realm system (so they will work exactly like realms, but without land), but I can't do everything at once.

Does that include having subordinate guilds? Could a guild be directly subordinate to a realm? Or are they designed to be completely standalone entities?

We will see. Production for most goods was way above demand, on the order of 2x - that is no longer the case. Let's see if this changes anything. Especially for wood that can dramatically lengthen your building times.

The problem I kept running into is everyone wants food but no one wants to sell food but everyone wants to sell something for food.
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Zandar

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2014, 11:59:39 AM »
 Having been part of the trade guild for a while previously let me give my point of view.
 
 Firstly trade isn't working because everyone wants a lucrative deal. Often I was able to find two parties that had corresponding goods to trade, but both parties wanted the better end of the deal and were unwilling to compromise on this. This demonstrates part of the problem in my view, trade is option and people aren’t willing to buy in except on their terms.
Food trade, the problem here is perception in a few ways. Firstly people are worried about the “crash” from trading food. Hopefully that is something that will be alleviated over time. More importantly in my view is the lack of a “surplus”. We have been conditioned by years of games to see surplus as a wasted opportunity and to trade it for benefit. This works for every other resource but food, since a surplus is pretty quickly consumed by increasing population.
Finally trade distance. So many people seemed unaware that the trade tariffs are not yet implemented. But even with those that were most weren’t interested in trade beyond a settlement or so because in their opinion once they were enabled the tariff would consume most the benefit to both parties. This again was more of a concern with food, people are very hesitant to see food taken “out” of the game.
 

Andrew

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2014, 12:45:36 PM »
I wonder if it'd be possible to make it so regardless of any surplus, x amount of food is reserved. That doesn't really solve the issue though.

Was talking to De-Legro on IRC about this and he had this idea: What if you could pay the tariff in Wealth? Or anything else really? (for when the tariffs are implemented, though the trade system in it's current condition would be largely ignored for anything long-distance or over water if the tariffs were turned on)
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Foxglove

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2014, 01:19:59 PM »
It does seem like trade costs/tariffs will cripple any chance of people bothering with anything beyond local trades. Unless the merchant entourage really will massively reduce the trade cost.

I've never really understood the reasoning behind the trade costs apart from it being to encourage people to set up chains to move resources. But long chains are very easy to disrupt and tedious to set up, meaning that people don't bother much.

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Andrew

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 01:42:15 PM »
Merchants cut the tariff in half, down to a minimum of 1%. Sometimes this doesn't even get it below 100% though (which I find funny).
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Zandar

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 02:11:18 PM »
I forgot another important part of the equation, the production/recruiting penalities. In general these don't work because most players don't seem to know what sort of ball park effect they have. Short of having engaged in some trade to get the missing resources and explicitly attempting something like building a palisade before and after resources are met, the relative effect is mostly hidden from the player. The same goes for troop recruitment, I hear people say what an effect having enough metal has, but to those who haven't run the experiments, what % are we talking, what size deficit is a problem?

People can't make informed decisions about these things as the game stands. I understand not wanting to reveal everything to the player and trying to prevent min/max situations, but right now people seem happy to mostly ignore resource shortages unless they can easily/cheaply fill them.

Tom

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Re: Future of the Trade Guilds
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 07:04:50 PM »
People can't make informed decisions about these things as the game stands. I understand not wanting to reveal everything to the player and trying to prevent min/max situations, but right now people seem happy to mostly ignore resource shortages unless they can easily/cheaply fill them.

That's a good point. I've starting working on a better game interface, and exposing more info. But this should definitely be in there somewhere.