Author Topic: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise  (Read 8221 times)

Tom

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2015, 10:16:40 AM »
I won't accept complaints about the speed of the game. It is artifically slowed because otherwise people who spent their life on it would dominate it and nobody with a job and family could play.

But yes, information could be more available. But check the mails you got. Do they really contain much that is not in the manual already?

Arx

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2015, 12:25:09 PM »
I won't accept complaints about the speed of the game. It is artifically slowed because otherwise people who spent their life on it would dominate it and nobody with a job and family could play.

This is a very valid point I will confess to having overlooked. It would be nice if the very early phase was faster, but getting the curve exactly right is a slow process and I fully understand the need to make it fair.

Quote
But yes, information could be more available. But check the mails you got. Do they really contain much that is not in the manual already?

I'm not sure, they seem to still be coming. I was basing that statement off the fact that you said

This information is nowhere on the forum.

And the fact that there's stuff in there about the actual troop management mechanics - something I don't recall seeing in the manual.

Tom

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2015, 09:29:35 PM »
Some details are explained more in depth, but I don't think I put any actual facts into the tutorial that are not in the manual.

Ratharing

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2015, 03:12:04 AM »
People quit the game because it's slow. The game is slow because it is artificially slowed. That's bad.

You got me curious there. Why do you think so? What are the issues you perceive in that department, and how would you fix them?

Arx

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2015, 12:33:30 PM »
You got me curious there. Why do you think so? What are the issues you perceive in that department, and how would you fix them?

The trickle of information isn't great. The fact that you are absolutely 100% reliant on your liege for absolutely everything isn't great either; it'd be nice to have an option on automatically sending someone accepting your offer a message with what exactly you want from them. That way, if they join while you're asleep they're less likely to decide there's sod-all to do in the game and immediately give up. I am basing the artificial slowing largely on Tom's statement that the information in the emails isn't on the forum, and the appearance to me that some of it isn't in the manual.

There's also nothing meaningful for landless knights to do. I still haven't heard of any dungeons in the South (and apparently you need multiple knights to do them?), and that means that unless you're actually in a major war there's nothing interesting - except RP, but everyone else gets that too and as such landless knights are still being screwed over.

Nearly all gameplay as far as I can tell revolves around being a lord or greater - so why not add an option to add an estate to the knight offer? Cut out the middleman. That way on entering the game the depth is a bit more visible - assuming it's there, I still haven't seen much sign of it (mostly because my main's liege is busy IRL, but that's not Tom's fault). This isn't artificial, but it does make the game very slow to get into.

Quests were I think meant to alleviate that, but they don't. I haven't seen a single quest offered, having travelled halfway across the map with a side character checking for quests at every settlement. When I asked a more veteran player, they said that it's very rarely used because there isn't actually much to use it for.

If you look a a browser game like Illyriad, it's also set up so you can't win by dedicating your life to it. But it has a very neatly designed set of mechanics so that the time for actions to complete curves upward, and as it reaches the point where the game is too slow to be fun it introduces a new set of quick actions that also scale up in time, and so on. That means that by and large the speed of the game wiggles a bit, but remains at a pleasant level and it only gets slower quite well into the game.

M&F, on the other hand, seems to start slow and stay slow. Instead of newbies being able to occupy themselves with quick but low-reward actions, they have basically nothing to do. It's not necessarily a problem per se depending on exactly what you want, but it definitely reduces new player retention. That may be a price you're willing to pay, Tom, but it's definitely a price I'm seeing.

The two things I think would make the most difference to the game are just dcumentation and more things for new players to do. The latter, I guess, boils down in large part to promoting confict so there's always a war on, which could be achieved in a number of ways.

M&F is already a zero-sum game in some ways, so just exacerbate that. Make resource densities more extreme - heavy in some places and light in others - and make trading for everything unfeasible somehow. Force realms to fight over resources - which might provoke more intra-corpus fighting as well, as the nobles in the desert start to ask why, exactly, they have to be in the desert and not somewhere better.

This might go over poorly, but give rulers more absolute power - lots of historical wars were fought because the king ordered it done, and the nobles couldn't just refuse (which is what I suspect would happen in M&F as it stands).

Roving brigands have been mentioned before on the forums. Make it worthwhile to have a few knights policing the realm and effectively bounty-hunting. Anything making bandits a more credible threat, really.

This isn't really new player advice, though, so it should probably go in a different thread somewhere.

Ratharing

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2015, 03:44:10 PM »
The trickle of information isn't great. The fact that you are absolutely 100% reliant on your liege for absolutely everything isn't great either

In the Lowlands Confederation you don't have a liege, so you are 100% reliant on yourself. And if you do, you can bid him goodbye and go independent at any moment.

it'd be nice to have an option on automatically sending someone accepting your offer a message with what exactly you want from them.

Yes, I suggested that recently.

There's also nothing meaningful for landless knights to do. I still haven't heard of any dungeons in the South (and apparently you need multiple knights to do them?), and that means that unless you're actually in a major war there's nothing interesting - except RP, but everyone else gets that too and as such landless knights are still being screwed over.

In the Archonian Dominate everyone is being invited to both explore a dungeon we have found and determine through which track the realm shall follow, since we are on a more republican system. It's in the south, and it's open should you wish to join it.

Nearly all gameplay as far as I can tell revolves around being a lord or greater - so why not add an option to add an estate to the knight offer? Cut out the middleman.

With the amount of characters that go sllumberblighted right away, that would be dangerous if there was no option to recall the ownership of the land. But I always land my knights right away. If your liege is inactive take over the settlements you want, or move elsewhere in to find a more active liege.

M&F is already a zero-sum game in some ways, so just exacerbate that. Make resource densities more extreme - heavy in some places and light in others - and make trading for everything unfeasible somehow. Force realms to fight over resources - which might provoke more intra-corpus fighting as well, as the nobles in the desert start to ask why, exactly, they have to be in the desert and not somewhere better.

This is already the case. Though it is not obvious from afar, it is a fact that some regions are incredibly better than others, while some are simply crap. The problem with this is that those with bad lands don't get the opportunity to raise large armies, precisely because their lands are bad, while those with good ones do. This ends up in some people simply having the best of the best, while the others become secondary realms.

This might go over poorly, but give rulers more absolute power - lots of historical wars were fought because the king ordered it done, and the nobles couldn't just refuse (which is what I suspect would happen in M&F as it stands).

You were complaining about knights being overly dependent on their lords. This suggestion matches that complain. If you check, you will see that it's a rare case that in which the ruler does not have near-absolute power over his vassals, due to player mentality.

Roving brigands have been mentioned before on the forums. Make it worthwhile to have a few knights policing the realm and effectively bounty-hunting. Anything making bandits a more credible threat, really.

We already have that, unless you mean AI-controlled bandits. If you do, then I'm completely opposed to it. I play M&F for the player interaction, and playing against the machine seems more like a chore to me, personally.

Arx

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2015, 04:25:10 PM »
The instant slumberblight is a symptom of low player retention. Worst case scenario the feature isn't used or Tom rolls it back.

I meant to clarify, but didn't get to it, the resource disparity needs to be such that the 'have-nots' are able to field an army - like the Swiss fielding a hugely successful army in the age of cavalry, despite having no horses.

The case for better ruler control is, IMO, completely different to liege control. The ruler of the realm does not directly determine your ability to play the game, as far as I'm aware, whereas your liege currently does. If they do already haev strong control, maybe there just needs to be a culture shift towards callouser, more entitled nobility somehoe to get more wars.

And lastly, yes, I was thinking of AI bandits. Because player interaction is nice, but currently there are almost zero internal maintenance needs and it's going to be a hell of a long time (if not forever) before the game is big enough to have lots of minor brigands all played actively by humans. Or maybe it could work now. The bigger obstacle is more likely to be the total system upgrades necessary to make brigandry meaningful - like intercepting trade caravans.

You mention realms tha don't have the problems I'm pointing out - that's great, but there's no way for a new player to know that. That's an issue.

Ratharing

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2015, 04:35:55 PM »
I meant to clarify, but didn't get to it, the resource disparity needs to be such that the 'have-nots' are able to field an army - like the Swiss fielding a hugely successful army in the age of cavalry, despite having no horses.

Then you need a way to clarify why one settlement is or not better than the other. If the owner of the best land cannot field a better and/or larger army than the owner of the worst one, then what makes his land better?

The case for better ruler control is, IMO, completely different to liege control. The ruler of the realm does not directly determine your ability to play the game, as far as I'm aware, whereas your liege currently does. If they do already haev strong control, maybe there just needs to be a culture shift towards callouser, more entitled nobility somehoe to get more wars.

This is not the same in every realm, but it seems like your experience is in those that heavily tax their vassals and grant them very little autonomy. In both the realms I named before you should theoretically have more power than that.
On a culture shift, it would have to be accompanied with mechanics supporting it. The change that made regions train more soldiers at once was a good one, but more needs to be worked in there. The ability to hoard troops, specially heavies if you have access to metal, simply stalls the game and makes war uninteresting and excessively dangerous.

You mention realms tha don't have the problems I'm pointing out - that's great, but there's no way for a new player to know that. That's an issue

True, because those realms have people that actively try to fight out those problems. Not necessarily with complete success, and sometimes creating other kinds of issues, but that's part of the game.
In any case, as said before, if you want to change that you need to change game mechanics. The ability to make as many troops for defense as for offense, for example, makes people prioritize defense and makes the borders much more static than it would be healthy.

Ehndras

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2015, 05:22:09 AM »
I make it a regular habit to question my new players as to what makes them tick as a player, and then do the same IC for their character. There are a few specific sub-sets, and some replies have even given me some great suggestion ideas.


Namely, it would be incredible if there was an exceedingly tiny chance to create "artifacts, relics, legendary items", based on regular equipment, or found in dungeons as well - with a special name or even a BM-like tiny increase to some stat. Its one of my FAVORITE BM features.

Also, please add a religion / culture mechanic. It would add a massive new level of depth and roleplay to every realm in the game, and need not even be used for religion per-se. You could use the mechanic to make a mercenary realm's regulations & contract public. You could create a romanesque republican system with it. You could properly create holy orders, and much more. AND, more importantly, it could create a useful basis for inter-realm diplomacy, culture-sharing, and conflict. Another one of the BEST BM features ever implemented.
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Insanegame27

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2016, 02:16:11 AM »
I learnt this the hard way after being declared a bandit when I thought my messages were going through. The text boxes at the top of the message/conversation popup thing are NOT the recipients. The recipients are the tickable boxes underneath.


Lu Bu was declared a bandit after his messages weren't getting through so he defected to Rathgar, eventually switching back to the Dubh Dun side. I should write a story about that.
Now I have a mental image of horses lined up in a goods factory, building things on an assembly line.

willy

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Re: Players: Your Ideas for New Player Advise
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2017, 04:13:47 PM »
M&F, on the other hand, seems to start slow and stay slow. Instead of newbies being able to occupy themselves with quick but low-reward actions, they have basically nothing to do. It's not necessarily a problem per se depending on exactly what you want, but it definitely reduces new player retention. That may be a price you're willing to pay, Tom, but it's definitely a price I'm seeing.


I felt this at first. Then I started to flesh out the RP for each character, each one started to get its own identity and goal. I think a good IC goal can invest people in their characters, keep them hooked during the "Where the hell is everyone" period. I think that was the difference when I played this time vs when I tried in beta.


Like, I built a scout-type. Roaming turned out to be a bust, but once she got settled I started to try some games of cat and mouse. A low-reward action like intercepting a traveling warband just right, pegging them with a message tied to a rock, and then walking home having properly middle-fingered them...kinda fun. Maybe not low-risk, but you get the idea.


If lieges want to keep their newbie knights, give them something to do. Create some dumb mini-game to keep them occupied. Give them a task that tests mechanics (like my scout) or helps them get an idea of the details of the game. A quest to go find and map-mark a brigand, get x town above 2k pop, maybe go talk to [insert interesting character] across the map and learn more about the locale. Enough tools are there for players to cover things like this while the devs focus on the fiddly work, IMO.