Author Topic: Arresting nobles.  (Read 3665 times)

Gustav Kuriga

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Arresting nobles.
« on: April 21, 2014, 09:57:15 PM »
Could I suggest a way to merely arrest nobles that are not accompanied by any soldiers? As I see it, we shouldn't have to go through a battle to apprehend them. If I missed something regarding this, please tell me.

Cynic

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 10:10:54 PM »
Resisting arrest would probably result in a battle.  I believe some sort of surrender system is in the long term pipeline for when people don't want to fight (or allow themselves to be 'arrested')

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 10:32:10 PM »
Well apparently having soldiers isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Just surrendered to nobles who had none. v-v

kellaine

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 10:42:30 PM »
Well apparently having soldiers isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Just surrendered to nobles who had none. v-v

Be nice!!!   lol

There are plenty of valid reasons that a character would do that.....

lets see...

  • accused of a crime and wants to surrender to the crown for judgement because he is innocent and thinks he can prove it.
  • surrender to an opposing force as hostage during peace talks to ensure that neither side betrays the other during the talks.
Well that is about the only reasons I can think of but they are good reasons to have a system of surrender in place.



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Tom

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2014, 12:39:46 AM »
I believe some sort of surrender system is in the long term pipeline

correct

De-Legro

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 01:11:05 AM »
Well apparently having soldiers isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Just surrendered to nobles who had none. v-v


If the battle consists of small amounts of troops, or poorly trained/equipped troops then yes it is perfectly feasible for the noble without troops to prevail.
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Tom

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 09:12:52 AM »
If the battle consists of small amounts of troops, or poorly trained/equipped troops then yes it is perfectly feasible for the noble without troops to prevail.

This. A single noble should easily handle several light infantry. I've not run battle simulations in a while, so I won't put a number there, but it's significantly above two.

But every additional soldier ever so slightly changes the odds.

De-Legro

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 10:24:00 AM »
This. A single noble should easily handle several light infantry. I've not run battle simulations in a while, so I won't put a number there, but it's significantly above two.

But every additional soldier ever so slightly changes the odds.

I've seen at least 10 recruits fail against a first one.
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Tom

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 01:03:35 PM »
I've seen at least 10 recruits fail against a first one.

I am aiming for maybe not realism in a simulationist sense, but in a sense of intuitive consonance.

Do you think a guy with plate armour on a war horse with a fine sword can take on 10 people with axes and cloth armour? Of course he could. They're too few to stop a charge, a swing with the sword is certain to cause serious injury to them, while his plate armour can take the occasional axe hit.

Do you think he could take on 100 of them? Most likely not. They would overwhelm him with sheer numbers, stop the horse, drag him off and slaughter him. He would most definitely take quite a few with him, but he'd go down.

Somewhere inbetween is the magic number where the chances are 50/50, but honestly even I don't know where exactly.

De-Legro

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 01:08:02 PM »
I am aiming for maybe not realism in a simulationist sense, but in a sense of intuitive consonance.

Do you think a guy with plate armour on a war horse with a fine sword can take on 10 people with axes and cloth armour? Of course he could. They're too few to stop a charge, a swing with the sword is certain to cause serious injury to them, while his plate armour can take the occasional axe hit.

Do you think he could take on 100 of them? Most likely not. They would overwhelm him with sheer numbers, stop the horse, drag him off and slaughter him. He would most definitely take quite a few with him, but he'd go down.

Somewhere inbetween is the magic number where the chances are 50/50, but honestly even I don't know where exactly.


It is a hard call, especially when experiance is factored in and reputation. When heavy cavalry was at its peak it would be difficult to convince levy troops to even stand their ground against a charge. It would be no different with First Ones. I expect that against 10 green troops the first charge would unsettle them enought that even rudimentary teamwork would be forgotten.
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Zakath

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2014, 04:41:59 PM »
Thing is, once those troops actually stand their ground a cavalry charge is almost useless. The horse is no more keen to ride into those human bumps than the human bumps are to be ridden into. Spears/pikes would help the troops keep the horses off, same as lances would help the knights actually hurt the infantry before their horses stopped charging.


So yes; Green troops will usually tend to flee from a cavalry charge, but once those troops stand their grounds cavalry turns into a milling body of horses in front of the lines. Lances help of course, but there's a reason cavalry was usually employed on the flanks or once the opponent broke and ran. The English knights frequently fought dismounted, and in quite a few cases that helped them win battles against superior forces which insisted that nobles never walked into battle. Lessons they seemed to have learned from fighting the Scots.


I agree though, that in small scale confrontations a knight in plate and wielding a proper sword would tend to overwhelm light infantry. I'm not so sure the same ought to hold true once you've got a First One facing off against a First One and just a few more axe wielding maniacs. While the first ones fight, the maniacs can kill the horse or drag the rider off the horse.

Cynic

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2014, 05:25:23 PM »
A horse still gives you a higher position to strike from, more speed and trained horses might be able to kick people, plus a lance is very capable of killing or knocking over multiple infantry on the charge, even against trained infantry (though the horse will probably end up hurt in that case)

In terms of M&F combat it simulates it perfectly well - if the first ones keep missing each other, sure the infantry will get many chances to hit someone with an axe. But equally if the first one kills the infantry first they won't last long, and all it takes is the commanding first one to not be able to kill off the lone first one before the infantry are dead/routed. The longer that takes, the lower the chance that the lone first one will win.

Alternatively if the axes all bounce off and the lone first one gets a lucky hit on the commander, then suddenly it's a healthy angry first one against a bunch of leaderless unprotected axemen.

I don't see any problem with the simulation here. It's not a guaranteed win until you get rather more than 5-10 weak little conscripts.

kellaine

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 06:11:11 PM »
Do you think a guy with plate armour on a war horse with a fine sword can take on 10 people with axes and cloth armour? Of course he could. They're too few to stop a charge, a swing with the sword is certain to cause serious injury to them, while his plate armour can take the occasional axe hit.

I do not know historically but I do know practical wise.  I have done battle personally in full armor and you are right 90% of the blows bounce off the armor, But if the knight is alone then it is more feasible for a larger group to subdue the knight with ease.  The knight is slower and once on the ground it is hard to get back up again.


In my experience fighting in full armor.  And I have done so full contact unchoreographed.  When I was part of a medieval recreation society.  I have been knighted for combat so I know what I am saying.  10 to 1 odds the numbers still win.
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Roran Hawkins

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 06:30:22 PM »
Well, that's consering that your opponents are also fairly experienced, armed and armoured. Imagine you in full armour fighting against some people dragged off the streets? I don't think they'll be very effective at using their numbers against you, even when given some decent weapons.
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Cynic

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Re: Arresting nobles.
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 06:49:39 PM »
You're a first one. Stronger, faster, smarter. And you won't run, they will.