Author Topic: Law of the Iron Rim  (Read 2009 times)

Tan dSerrai

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Law of the Iron Rim
« on: April 03, 2014, 11:21:21 PM »
This is a copy of a law (or custom) proposed IC in Rathgar. I post it here for information - discussion should happen ingame between Rathgaris. Comments welcome, but they should be ignored ingame.

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 Lords and warriors,
let me propose to accept the 'Law of the Iron Rim' as custom of Rathgar.
I would thus put the following before our warriors, to be discussed, refined and then either accepted as custom or rejected outright.
The law of the Iron Rim should see to the following:
 
  • to give our youngsters or those nobles needing to prove themselves on opportunity to take their spears and go a-raiding within Rathgar...without such raids resulting in wars.
  • that raids, feuds and minor wars once started do not burn ever hotter until a conflagration consumes us all.
  • that we are able to fight each other, honing our strengths without these fights consuming too much of our might.
Thus:
 Equal Feuds: Anyone may call a feud. The caller should state the target of the feud (a noble, one or more estates - or whatever else may serve) - then state what he will wager. Then, the beginning of the feud must be stated - no less than a week distant. Optionally troop types to be used may be agreed upon - if both sides agree. Once started, noone from the outside should interfere with the feud. It ends once one side concedes defeat - or if both sides wish it to end. The winner takes the spoils - and may not be challenged for 2 months.
 Hunter Feud: In addition, a feud may be called against a stronger target. In this case the caller does not need to wager something of his own....but he needs to define the target, the beginning and the end of the feud. The called side may defend itself in its territory - but not attack the caller outside the feuding area. If the caller takes a settlement and the called does not retake it within 8 days, it belongs to the caller and may not be challenged for 2 months.
This way a small family may challenge a stronger one.
The Order may rule upon feuds, may allow or forbid feuds between families, clans or in a dire emergency or high celebration even within all of Rathgar.
Thus, warriors - your thoughts?

 An alternative to the 'Hunter Feud':
Instead of formally having to call a hunter feud we could accept as simple custom, based on 'You may only hold what you can defend' the following:
Any weaker family may attack any settlement of a stronger family - and if they take it and defend it for 8 days, it is theirs. However, a weaker family may challenge a stronger one only once during 2 months (2 RL weeks).
 

PanH

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2014, 11:52:19 PM »
I think there's an issue with this proposition. We are trying to make a custom to fit the culture that was invented for Rathgar, and not a custom made by the players. I mean, this is one of the main point of the game : history is made by players. If the players want a different culture than what is presented at the moment, they should do so. We should not fit the players for the culture, but the opposite. And this culture will be created by the game. If in a month, Rathgar has radically changed and is closer to a "civilized" kingdom or something, then great ! but I feel like we're trying to force something that isn't needed here (and this isn't just in answer to your proposition, Tan, but to the whole raid clan tradtion).
Some stuff has already been created to answer to our needs (runestone, heartlands, etc). If we need to limit civil wars and raids, it'll happen because of one. There isn't any need for it right now.

I feel like we are trying to create some sort of general custom to allow 'light' civil wars in Rathgar, while this'll just happen in game (like how me and Mookzen did it). If it doesn't, then we'll fight with all of our virtual soldiers instead of some, and Rathgar would have failed. Big deal.

Mookzen

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2014, 12:08:42 AM »
While the effort is appreciated and it is certainly something we need to figure out, I think this way too convoluted to be reasonably of the Rathgar culture, these rules reek of weakness and fear.

Something like 'you cannot rule what you cannot defend', one noble per raid, one settlement per raid, to keep it from escalating (unless you want it to) you may challenge him with a similar amount of troops he brings and have a good battle, if you cannot match his raid you must either forfeit the settlement or bear the shame of asking for assistance. Thus the settlement is taken with honor and will be viewed as such, if you want to go to war then that is your business, if you feel the right to rule then show it by way of the spear.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 12:18:50 AM by Mookzen »

Stonedman

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2014, 12:21:33 AM »
Quote
We are trying to make a custom to fit the culture that was invented for Rathgar
Quote


Apart from the vague notion of "warliike clans" The culture of Rathgar was created by the players.
So it comes to the players to create the customs.

Tan dSerrai

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2014, 09:20:54 AM »
@PanH:
We as players did 'create' Rathgar - and an important part of that creation was 'internal raids'. So far near none have happened - in part due to it still being the build up phase, but also in part due to the 'total war' mentality: 'If you make a small attack I will crush you with all I have'. I attempt to bring to life something that was intended to be there from the very start....so I do not feel I am trying to 'force' players into something...I am trying to enable possibilities, giving players more to do, enrich our life and culture.

@Moookzen
If anyone finds a simpler method that both enables raids AND prevents them from spiralling out of control - I am all for it. I think Rathgar should frown on someone who is being raided and as answer declares war. How to achieve that - I am all ears...and I agree the simpler, the better :)

Zakath

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2014, 09:27:14 AM »
Instead of formalizing it to that degree, wouldn't it be better if we have some sort of reasoning for letting the Order step in to prevent excessive bloodshed? The gods demand the foolishness stops, or tradition demands it or somesuch?


Since the Order doesn't exactly have the strength to stop the major power blocks it would have to be something we agree to, or it won't work. Personally I'd much rather do it that way, rather than formalize what constitutes a raid and open up the path for legalese and system gaming.

Alumaani

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2014, 09:37:54 AM »
It is too open for abuse Tan. I can see a myriad of ways that I could take advantage of that to further my own gain so you are guaranteed that better players than I can. You are literally authorising players to grab land without retribution and to me, that is not what a raid is.

Like many things in game the opportunity to raid is not available yet and you are trying to shove a round peg in a square hole and I can assure you that it is open to abuse. There is a huge difference in taking resources and taking land...massive and whist you claim it is designed to help new players get involved it will do the opposite in my opinion. It won't encourage them because do you know whats going to happen when a small player attacks a stronger player successfully? He will get pissed off and find a way to get back at him, human nature.

To be a hunter you need to be half as strong as your target? How the hell do you judge that? You don't know who is in my settlement, how can you stop me moving troops in? All of a sudden the new player has lost all of his hard built warriors and quits.

I can see what you are trying to do and its great that you are thinking about it but let the game develop a bit and when additional functions come in we can raid and loot then leave. We can agree the limit of raids against any 1 clan and bingo...were in business. Lets ask tom to push the loot function as a priority if he really wants to see infighting because I am not prepared to risk our great nation just because the rest of the world fears us.

Lets face it guys, it was only Bastur who wanted to wipe out EI, nobody else was interested. How many of us are stomping over the rest of the world at the minute? None right? We have an IG advantage and I say lets keep it, we are not irresponsible with it and we can grow into something Epic and then let the world come at us, which it will one day...we can ride from Rathgar united in its defense and that is a scenario I would REALLY love to see.

I have a commonly known mantra I live by: KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid!  The more complicated a situation or process is, the more it is likely to fail. Send the new warriors south and attack other nobles for fun on a small scale or even each other in the open field for insults with no more than 20 light infantry (mixed)...build up an IG fear and resentment of the bloody northerners without ruining peoples games. Release prisoners with scathing insults naked into the fields and tell others the tales...its a long term strategy required here but it must be kept SIMPLE.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 09:42:49 AM by Alumaani »

Tom

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 10:37:39 AM »
Well, here's the KISS rule:

Internal feuds are fine.
Total war among tribes is not.
Which is which? We'll know it when we see it.

Stonedman

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 12:12:09 PM »
I actually agree with Alum.
 
If Tom / Everyone else wants to see us raiding eachother...... put the functionality in game.
 
I Also think it would be awesome if in a month or two time, the whole world declares war on Rathgar haha. Of course they would in the meantime need to actually recruit some troops rather than just empire build. Which is what I guess they forgot to do in the first place.
 
Stoned

Tom

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 01:44:08 PM »
If Tom / Everyone else wants to see us raiding eachother...... put the functionality in game.

I'm working on it, but it has prerequisites. Supply carried camp follower (done), resupply in the field, camp followers resupply, looting of supply, thralls, lots and lots of things that need to be in place first.

PanH

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Re: Law of the Iron Rim
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 03:54:35 PM »
@PanH:
We as players did 'create' Rathgar - and an important part of that creation was 'internal raids'. So far near none have happened - in part due to it still being the build up phase, but also in part due to the 'total war' mentality: 'If you make a small attack I will crush you with all I have'. I attempt to bring to life something that was intended to be there from the very start....so I do not feel I am trying to 'force' players into something...I am trying to enable possibilities, giving players more to do, enrich our life and culture.
Rathgar was created by the guided start. As a new player, everything was mostly set up when I arrived, the clans, a few customs, etc. And no one wants total war because they don't want to risk annihilation.
I think we have to look at those raids would add : big players would just garrison more heavily their settlements, people that just got raided will be dogpiled, it encourages the production of strong light infantry rather than medium and heavy. Feuds can already be resolved in a way that doesn't include total war, because neither side wants it, unless they are massively stronger. The only thing we need is that the Order and other clans step up if one clan bullies another one, but that is already possible.