Author Topic: Following through on promises  (Read 7750 times)

Cynic

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Following through on promises
« on: February 18, 2014, 07:29:11 PM »
The land shown will be available during the Guided Start, *BUT* that thing is called that for a reason. People should be able to expand, but with story and roleplay and in the purpose of "setting the mood". Anyone doing a mad land-grab will find his settlements suddenly don't belong to him anymore as soon as I notice.Once the Guided Start is over, it's a free-for-all, and I hope that by that time there will be enough established culture and spirit that things happen for a reason and not just because you can.

More specifically: Yes, there will be a land grab once players beyond the Guided Start participants begin to enter the game.

However, by then I hope that the start will have created a somewhat solid culture and society and the land grab will be part of that and simply become a shard of history.

You can start new realms with my permission.

The land grab won't be one. Yes, after that you can conquer new lands, but since most of it will be already taken, it won't be anywhere near the rush it was in the alphas.

Once more: Please ignore the start of the game. It will happen ONCE in ten or twenty years, and it will be closely guided to make sure that nothing like this can or will happen. Ignore the land-grab phase, because it simply won't happen. Think about gameplay when all settlements are taken.


There are now multiple players with 10+ regions under their control.

Is there any possibility that you will follow through with earlier indications, and either enforce adherence to the 'co-operatively agreed' maps of early expansion areas, or enforce your references to 'no land grab'?

I'm not too unhappy with people taking one or two more territories than assigned, I can live with that.  But we're only ONE week into guided start, (half way?) and people are still taking more (can see battles on the map).

800 territories available, between ~50 players in guided start, is 16 each.  Which means if people are anywhere above about 8 then there will be very little left over for anyone other than the guided start land-grabbers.  And that can't be good for the game, to have so much concentrated in the hands of the priveliged few.  I know when I see a game in a position like that it's a real disincentive to join.  It's like why bother, someone has already monopolised power and influence in the game.  I know that's not a true reflection, but it's the impression that matters not the truth.

Besides, the guided start people have ANOTHER opportunity to grab more land once guided start ends, and ALSO have a head-start with troops, positioning and planning.

I know it's tough to lay down the rules with people who have donated money in advance for the game, but the game must take priority.

Please remove regions from any player with more than about 8, or more than one or two more than the agreed areas.

Please also ban anyone from taking any further territories beyond about 8.  And carry this restriction forward into the first week after guided start ends, so at least SOMETHING is left for the new players who we really really need to retain.

Tom

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 07:48:18 PM »
Thanks for pointing this out. I'll make an in-game announcement and give people a day or two.

LGMAlpha

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 07:53:02 PM »
I have 10 settlements right now. One is a region that I'm going to give to someone who was late to the GS, and I'm getting ready to hand another settlement over as well. It's likely that I will give a couple more of my settlements away when new players begin joining. The only difference is that they will get a settlement that has a few minor improvements, as compared to a settlement with nothing.


18 people have not shown up for the GS, which immediately leaves a bunch of space to fill in the middle of the realm. This is going to mean that some players are going to have more settlements than was originally intended.



Valast

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 08:09:27 PM »
and people are still taking more (can see battles on the map).

Not disagreeing with you here.  However a little clarification on the taking of settlements by force.  A few people who were not into the beginning of the Guided Start have come in now.  So I for example missed out on the zippy zap travel and grants.  Even though one of the other guided start players tossed me a bone like LGMAlpha is doing for another, I am still having to take the other settlements by force.

Not complaining mind you, just making it clear that some of that is taking place... which may be the battles you are referring to.

Bubba

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 08:26:19 PM »

I only see one person with +10 holdings right now, and he said that he was finished. I have 7 holdings at the moment. I do plan to have 10, because 10 is a reasonable number. I dont share your opinion that 8 is some magic number, and I think you are too alarmed despite the huge swaths of unclaimed territory that no one player could encompass.


Also, you aren't considering that player can develop and later give away lands that they hold right now. I just gave 2 lands to Valast when he entered. It gave him a headstart that makes his game more enjoyable, not less enjoyable. That kind of thing happens, and your concern doesn't account for people giving their lands away.


I know it's tough to lay down the rules with people who have donated money in advance for the game, but the game my preferred style of play must take priority.

This game will run a long time. How long do you propose to enforce this ban of yours? Forever? That's how long it will need to make a real difference. If the game is hurt by not having lots of free lands, then it was never destined to last years.  That said, your math doesn't work. No one has 16 lands, and all 50 people would need to have that much. And a dozen of those haven't even redeemed their codes yet. Massive overreaction to non-existent threat.



Quote
Please remove regions from any player with more than about 8, or more than one or two more than the agreed areas.

As said, I have 7 lands right now, but the presumption here that you can demand the GM to come in for as little as 9 or 10 lands is galling. 

The guided start is about building culture and history. Where is your roleplay, your themes, and your other stuff that attracts new players with a vision? If the game were only appealing to new players because free lands were numerous, it would be a game destined to last three months at most. The best way to ensure new players stay is to give them a narrative that they can join. Since you crusade so righteously for new player retention, point me to your efforts in that regard. Where is the story that you've built so far?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:51:05 PM by Bastur »

Tan dSerrai

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 09:06:25 PM »
I would suggest giving a (clearer) guideline. This can be different for the different realms.

For Rathgar with its decentralized structure it would be easy: No more than 7-8 regions per clan. This would help considerably - 'focus on building cities' might be to vague   :)

For the Erstes Imperium they have their borders set

For the isles - do not know.

Again, for Rathgar it would actually be an excellent possibility to have the Order state 'the gods have decreed that....' - and have it enforce its decree by asking for help by other clans if necessary.

Cynic

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 09:21:00 PM »
I only see one person with +10 holdings right now, and he said that he was finished. I have 7 holdings at the moment. I do plan to have 10, because 10 is a reasonable number. I dont share your opinion that 8 is some magic number, and I think you are too alarmed despite the huge swaths of unclaimed territory that no one player could encompass.

This game will run a long time. How long do you propose to enforce this ban of yours? Forever? That's how long it will need to make a real difference. If the game is hurt by not having lots of free lands, then it was never destined to last years.  That said, your math doesn't work. No one has 16 lands, and all 50 people would need to have that much. And a dozen of those haven't even redeemed their codes yet. Massive overreaction to non-existent threat.

The guided start is about building culture and history. Where is your roleplay, your themes, and your other stuff that attracts new players with a vision? If the game were only appealing to new players because free lands were numerous, it would be a game destined to last three months at most. The best way to ensure new players stay is to give them a narrative that they can join. Since you crusade so righteously for new player retention, point me to your efforts in that regard. Where is the story that you've built so far?


2 by my count.  One in Rathgar and one in Erstes.  I hadn't realised that they had plans to give them away (or at least one does).


My argument is not that the figures now are bad.  If everyone sticks as they are now, then as I noted with ABOUT 8 (not a magic number, I kept saying AROUND 8 ) there is no real issue.  The problem comes if people with ABOUT 8 continue to grow at the same rate and we end up with, what, 30,40,50 people with an average of 10 each?  Then in first week after guided start they all take 2 more each?  That's most of the land.


If what I've said here is irrelevant because nobody is planning to grow beyond that ROUGH number then that's fine, I'll go away happy. However I would really rather not keep quiet, because once it's done it's too late.  I'd rather see precautions and no problem, than have to try to fix something afterwards.


Regarding your point about lands - A very intelligent person once explained to me (and has had a long term effect on my social opinions) about what makes people happy - it's all relative.  If a new player comes in and there's 1000 landowners with between one and three regions, it's very different to if he comes in and there's 10 landowners with 200 each and 500 players with no land.  Likewise, there is not much difference for a 'top' player who has 50 regions and 40 for his rival, compared to having 5 regions and 4 for his closest rival. He's still top, but he hasn't removed opportunities for others.  So it isn't important that there is a lot of free land.  But it is important that the land is not artificially 'shrunk' by having it become normal that 100 regions is a personal holding, and therefore the map has capacity for about 30 people.


(ALL NUMBERS used are exaggerations to prove a point - I could come up with smaller numbers with some thought, but I can't be bothered.  If my point is that big is not better, then it applies to smaller differences too - though it obviously applies less.  But still applies! :) )


My roleplay is in-game.  I role-play, I don't storytell.  I've got a couple of ideas up my sleeve, one of which will apply pretty specifically to landless knights.  I just need to find some free time off work to propagate it.

Valast

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 10:38:20 PM »
Again, for Rathgar it would actually be an excellent possibility to have the Order state 'the gods have decreed that....' - and have it enforce its decree by asking for help by other clans if necessary.

Hmmm... or even more likely, the balance within Rathgar must be maintained to keep the Order strong enough to keep its influence.  If strength is power then the order should be active in trying to maintain a balance of some sort simply to STAY in power.  Of course that is all RP as we are working to keep everything nice.

Zakath

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 11:44:14 PM »
I don't see why anyone would want to have 10 regions at once. Too much to keep track of, I already gave away 2 of mine to stewards. Still direct vassals, almost as good as holding it myself, but I can not worry about them :)


I will take one or two more, and it does mean someone else has their homelands and the provinces they hold for me, but eventually such regions are likely to fall into the hands of newer players. Keeping track of 10 provinces, or even more, is likelt to be just as bad ingame as it was for kings in real life. You don't optimize your regions, you can't react to far flung holdings and you just miss things because you're busy.


Things are going to sort themselves out, and new players are quite likely to appreciate built up regions even if they come with the condition of service.

Mookzen

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 12:24:15 AM »
It's really not all that dramatic as this thread makes it out to be. No one has truly crossed the proverbial line and clearly shown an intention to abuse the guided start. People should be done setting their settlement matters in order right about now and will no doubt turn their focus to diplomacy very soon. I cannot speak for the other realms, but Rathgar could use some stitching up in the middle, within reason. In any case, this is not chess and the power distribution is going to be asymmetrical regardless, however the game will trend towards equilibrium, those who grab too much are at risk of being swallowed whole when others start biting.

Cynic

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 12:32:00 AM »
I would argue that it crossed the line a while back, but that depends entirely on perspective so I'm not going to hold that up as fact.  It's not important though as long as everyone abuses it the same, or about the same, and the total doesn't get too high.

My concern is that it doesn't continue and actually start causing problems.

Bubba

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 12:57:43 AM »
The stated concern of fearing for newcomers is not even close--plenty of territory left even with the existing players taking ten. There's more than a little "I play 5 lands so everyone should play 5 lands" underlying the claims in this thread. I'm not being dictated to by the concerns of one person.


Quote
My roleplay is in-game.  I role-play, I don't storytell.  I've got a couple of ideas up my sleeve, one of which will apply pretty specifically to landless knights.  I just need to find some free time off work to propagate it.


Ask people what they like about a book and they tell you "this character and that character" so you're mistaken if you think good stories are separate from good roleplay. They're simply less solipsistic forms of roleplay. Erstes shows very little of its flavour to the outside eye, and new players do not begin knowing everything from the inside. If this thread is truly about concern for new player retention, it has picked the least likely thing to turn away new players.

Finton

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 01:09:24 AM »
I don't want to be land greedy. It has very little to do with fairness, or the good of the game. Pure self-interest. I could probably move to expand my March beyond the realm borders with ease. It'd allow me build a road directly between two of my settlements with inconvenient borders. I haven't done it though because I don't want to get a can of whup ass opened on me by my Duke, Tom or my entire realm.

Erstes Imperium is missing two or three March-lords and I believe the respective Duke's are working on getting them under control given that the GS is already halfway done. I don't think this should be exclusive to any one or two players and I expect lands will be provided for stragglers and newcomers at the end of the GS. I haven't compared a map of what we have previously agreed, but I understand that EI is maintaining it reasonably well.

Foxglove

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2014, 01:20:47 AM »
I don't see much in the way of over-expansion or a mad rush to land grab. Most people appear to be limiting themselves and not running wild. The Fading Isles in particular is very thinly colonised and I doubt it will be properly established before the end of the guided start. I've only got a small number of settlements (and that's all I want), but I was considering taking more to get them started so I could give them away to new players after the guided start is over. It sounds like other people have the same idea.

If we're meant to be limiting ourselves to a specific maximum number of settlements, we need to hear the number from Tom.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 01:34:47 AM by Foxglove »
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De-Legro

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Re: Following through on promises
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2014, 02:36:51 AM »
I don't see much in the way of over-expansion or a mad rush to land grab. Most people appear to be limiting themselves and not running wild. The Fading Isles in particular is very thinly colonised and I doubt it will be properly established before the end of the guided start. I've only got a small number of settlements (and that's all I want), but I was considering taking more to get them started so I could give them away to new players after the guided start is over. It sounds like other people have the same idea.

If we're meant to be limiting ourselves to a specific maximum number of settlements, we need to hear the number from Tom.


I just assumed we were slow :) I know my RP has meant that settlement up take has been slow as I set up everything for the events.
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